Maybe I’m wrong here. But is there really any true difference between a Hogan Lag downswing. Versus a Steve Stricker Lag downswing? Both have the club as the last item that gets slung past the body
And wouldn’t it be easier to maintain having a Steve Stricker style of transition?
Not really caring about style points in a golf swing.More about repeatability
I like to think of both lag and plane as inertia products.
That was a vague response.But I see it as a reaction not an action to moving parts
Infact if you think about lagging an item. It means it comes last. In golf, if one can just grasp that idea. It would free up so many others areas that one never needs to worry about. Or over analyze
Both techniques derive different levels of lag, given their plane (upright vs flat). No one is better.
For wedges, removing levers like Striker does is genius for pitching and iron game. However, he sacraficed distance by doing that. Repeating, but weak.
Hogan, added or removed levers as he saw fit…given the physics of the golf club. An intent and feel in play, but inertia like RR said above. When you swing flat, and understand inertia…you dont have to make compensations. You simplY, DO…because physics and feel dictate such…INERTIA. Some clubs need more stuff than others.
Sometimes simple is better when exploring concepts like this. RR may be cagy, hes rarely vague. There is a ton to unpackage and that 1 small statement he made.
Finally, THERE IS NO BEST TECHNIQUE…there is hitting or swinging. Both equally complex and mysterious …
True, but the fact that the forearms have two bones, and they can rotate the hand 180 degrees, makes things a bit more complicated imo.
ABS is very good at addressing that aspect of the downswing, in relation to lag.
Very cool topic btw. At the end of the day, either the clubhead is leading you, or you’re leading the it. I don’t think there’s much middle ground there.
I remember reading some of Stricker’s swing thoughts, and one that sticks out is that he tries to reproduce his set-up position at impact - back of the left hand sort of stuff. It speaks to his lack of heavy ‘load’ in the downswing imo, which possibly can be misconstrued as lacking ‘lag’.
I always thought that one of Tiger’s many disastrous swing decisions, was getting into that heavy loading in transition, with his Haney inspired bad impression of Hogan. It was such a massive power leak/throw, and that was the end of him. He never loaded it in that traditional sense when he was at his best, you could almost accuse him of ‘casting’ it in transition in his prime, if you know what I mean. Justin Thomas has a similar sort of move up there.
Eliminating the pro gamer motion. The amateur motion seems like it would be easier and more repeatable with less of a huge down cock lag move. Doesn’t it seem it would be simpler ? I’m not saying casting. But a repeatable motion of thinking club head being turned by the body for speed , accuracy . Almost no hand manipulations to a minimal. A wide back ; wide down and wide past the ball into the finish. Like a one lever motion. That moves around a turning axis
Yes the shallow of the club is a must.But thinking of a basic club head lagging last.
I do think that the forearms make this a bit more complicated than it seems. In a linear sort of way, yeah, I can see why this concept would be easier, but unless you’re Dustin Johnson, doing that could probably cause problems.
I do get what you’re saying for sure, that angular download from the top can be a real swing wrecker, especially for the average golfer, but impersonating Stricker’s action could also lead to issues as it’s not that simple.
Another non answer here: I don’t feel lag per se. my sense is get on 4:30, hold the angle (okay that’s what you’re referring to as lag) and rotate through. Very repeatable as I’m flat going back so less required downward movement of the arms.
Yes . Get to the 430 line (where the pivot takes over) . But not an emphasis on dramatic lag angles. Wrist hinge and rotation of wrist yes. But not as bunched up as say a Hogan; Or a Dustin Johnson for that means. A simple wide backswing that gets you to the 430 line with little or no manipulations all the way to the finish. Really taking the hands out of it (in feel) . Less timing induced. Just seems like that massive pro lag look would just rain total havoc on most if not all amateurs.
Just keeping it simple in the terms of what lagging an object could mean. The body will drop, clear so you can keep that width feeling. Not really any new info at all. But I would like to see a study of players who had massive lag in the downswing. Compared to ones who had less. Wonder if the speed and accuracy really weren’t that much different. And which ones were the most accurate
Not sure what you mean by bunched up. Hogan hit it exceptionally far for his era, which required free-wheeling of the swing.
I don’t feel that way at all either. Flatter shoulder plane enables rotation which feels easier and free-er. Steeper shoulders require some form of manipulation or you’re blocked.
I’d be interested to hear what you guys think of what Chuck Cook says about “lag.”
In a PGA symposium from 2014 or 2015, he says he defines lag as everything in the swing which contributes to the flow of energy from the pivot out to the club. So, the classic forearm/shaft “angle” is lag, in that it shows that the wrist hinge is holding energy that hasn’t been released to the club yet.
However, he goes on to say that anything in the swing where resistance from one stage to another stores energy, that’s lag. So when the feet/knees begin to squat or move in transition, but the hips delay, that is lag. When the hips begin to move left but the upper body stays back, that is lag. And so on.
So, he says, lag is needed and should be felt everywhere in the swing.
Not a huge chuck cook fan. I took a deep dive into Kelvin M and he has a nice 3 part article on lag which is measurable. I knew what I was looking for but couldn’t get there before. Mod 1 trains lag big time from P3 to P4. My forearms can feel it. It’s funny when I played a while back with a steep swing many people commented that I had great lag??? I had no idea what that was at the time.
I tried last year to get more lag on video with no success. What I was looking for was the club hands in front of R thigh with the club shaft still parallel to the ground. You would see a 90 degree angle. Most every great golfer gets there. Ams usually have way less than 90. I’m going to post another topic on lag because Victor Rodriquez a Kelvin disciple described something I used before which sounds just like mod 1.
Here’s the link:
Wow I can’t believe I used to stay up at night reading this stuff. Hitting the bag is better for my brain and sanity. I let lag figure out the lag. He has a way higher golf IQ than me😀
No offense to anyone. But still missing the bare essence of lag. Sequential lag that is
In golf it would be doing what you can so the clubface arrives last.
Both guys hit the 430 line perfectly. Forgetting their release styles. Imho; amateurs would really benefit from emulating a Steve Stricker move. It’s repeatable , and easier to maintain. I hate comparing pros swings. As in reality; it has very little influence on my game whatsoever. But a feeling of width seems like it would be most beneficial
Sergio. He really doesn’t have as much lag as it looks like here. It’s an artifact of the flattening effect of the photo. In 3D, he has plenty of lag, but he doesn’t have more than alot of other guys, it’s just that his particular swing plane and vector causes it to look like more from this angle.
Well said. Not sure why I even made this thread
Haha
