If he keeps hitting those narrow fairways out there at Torrey he won’t go back. Foley will continue to whisper in his ear and his world-class athleticism stubbornness will win out. What effect will these swing changes down the line have on his reconstructed left knee? I think at the end of the day for him it’s whatever gets him past 18 majors and then he’s done. Purely pragmatic, just business. Get it done and goodbye. No way he plays the Champions Tour.
The coverage just said he’s hit 10 of 27 fairways…
Dubai Final Round- Tiger shoots 75 and drops back to 20th after being only one stroke behind after 54 holes…
Just 3 of 14 fairways on final day for 44.5% for the week…
9 greens in reg sat and 11 greens in reg sun
This is a trend now that is making him less and less invincible in not only the other player’s minds but more importantly his own mind as well-
It’s a disaster for him- what he is being told to do with his swing is not for him as he has lost his ability to feel the club and throw in the mental torment of the past 14 months on top of that…
He is Tiger…but it’s going to be a brave man who says he can come back from here- I don’t see any signs right now that can show he will move forward to Jack’s record… he may not even catch Snead’s tour record wins
Even in his other eras of swing change where Tiger says his game went south for a while before he got better, it was never to this degree
The pics of Hogan here really show just how well he delivered the club through impact… the hands were kept tight to the body and the relationships between shaft/arms/shoulders never changed
You see a big difference between Tigers driver lines and his iron lines
All anyone has to do is sit down at a computer and go to youtube and type in "Joe Golfer swing’ and get your results…then play through them and listen to the swing critique by the so called ‘experts’.
They spend 80% of their critique time explaining the set up and the backswing…10% on the downswing path…5% on the impact…and 5% on the through swing and finish
It is actually embarrassing to watch most of the stuff on there…the problem with this type of tuition is it revolves around very little…the golf swing is all about when the club gets to hip high coming down and gets to hip high going through…this is the crux of the swing … as history has shown with so many different setups and backswing style trudging off to the bank every monday morning with a big bag with $$$ signs on it
people teach this backswing plane stuff because it is a slower motion and that’s what they can see…they can’t see the blurr of the swing as well or understand the blurr of the swing…so they focus on the basic stuff such as setup and backswing and forget all the important stuff in the middle and then tell you…“Gee that was a nice balanced finish position” to round it off
ONCE a student knows the correct feel and the correct path to impact and beyond then the world is their oyster… until then worrying about their backswings and their alignment and their grips and all these static things is nonsense…you earn all these things once you know your way to impact and beyond…I don’t have to tell Ray Floyd, Lee Trevino, Corey Pavin, Jim Furyk or Allen Doyle that… they all have vastly different grips, different backswings and different alignments- but they all KNEW what the approach to impact and then the post impact feel and path was-- so they earned their stripes and did it the correct way even though instructors call their swing woeful. Their swings are truly classic if you know what to look for and what really drives a golf swing on a consistent daily basis.
The swing below shows a much better dynamic approach through impact and beyond with the shaft and body moving in unison and not altering their plane off to the right as much as TW seems to do with his woods-- the end result was not too bad either 
The third frame (right) is a prime example of better dynamics and body rotation with a full thrust to the finish before the swivel
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufscYVbYLQQ[/youtube]
A few of us watched Tiger before playing this morning and to a man no one looks at his current swing and says “man that looks good”! In fact most of us look at it and say … “wtf” is he doing?!
As Two says… Tiger is Tiger and he’ll fight through it best he can, won’t admit he or his teacher are wrong, and he’ll probably win an event or two this year (maybe… no major though). I agree… Jack’s record is looking very safe. It’s amazing how well he used to be able to “close” while now it seems he saves his worsts rounds for day 4.
I love how his right foot pressure coordinates with the strike in this shot- so much good stuff here. He was so completely connected when he was younger. I hope he gets back there. I think he will, but he’s going to need to stop listening to teachers. What can someone like him actually be taught by anyone else? It’s a joke…
Yes sir, BOM…great sequence
i have those videos from Tiger and his US Amateur wins…I really wanted to post them but couldn’t get a good grab on the frames…so thank you
He did so many more things in a better sequence then…all he needed was a wedge game refinement at that point- not an entire overhaul- which has been going on for far too many years now and from what we are now witnessing has caused total distress to his game because the natural instincts are hidden so far under the surface now, he seems a lost soul… what he seems to be working on now is just not in alignment with superior ball striking no matter how much he tries to talk his mind into believing it.
Golf is a humbling game… even for Tiger.
Love this comparison . . . . look at the hips too . . . . yowzers . . .
I was having a discussion with a golfer friend of mine (old school still uses steel shafts in his drivers) and he thinks Tiger recently is clearly getting more comfortable with new swing and playing again but is showing nothing more than just fatigue.
- Dec Chevron he shows outstanding ballstriking and is leading for rounds 1-3 and then collapses to then lose in a playoff to a current hot/energetic player (Greame).
- Torrey again put together good 1-2 rounds and fades starting Saturday and Sunday was atrocious with even his rookie playing partner having claimed Tiger “quit”.
- Dubai again puts up a 71 and 65 right in mix of striking distance then again fades saturday and a worse 75 on Sunday.
All of this is obvious fatigue. Whether he still isn’t practicing as much, getting older, his new swing is more taxing (he IS driving ball longer than I’ve seen in YEARS) or whatever, but we have clues
He also thinks 2010 is considered a year off for Tiger really since most anyone would have taken time considering what he was going through yet he courageously still showed up at events and under intense scrutiny. Tiger admitted mid-1010 he wasn’t getting ‘reps’ (practice) and that would effect any golfer then Tiger decided to go through a major overhaul which takes time even for a talent as tiger.
He thinks Tiger will surely win again because he is just way too talented/competitive and may even get a major or two again in next few years but I beg to differ. You can see he still is struggling and confidence is shaken yet still has flashes of the player we all come to know. Most players going through ALL he has/is going through (personal and mechanical) would be in jeopardy of losing their tour cards. Tiger struggles and still is under par. Yet the field has gotten too good, equipment is longer and Tiger is not getting younger. If he can’t figure out his endurance issues it won’t matter how good his swing looks on video to Foley, Tiger won’t will another major.
[quote=“twomasters”]
He did so many more things in a better sequence then…
[quote]
That looks more violent and more of a CF Dump but just being controled by a young athletic body to me. His left knee paid the price for that and because of so, he went searching for “the right way” to swing. He has been searching ever since yet was still able to muster 14 majors and what, 71 pga wins.
Time will tell really…
I think people saying his younger swing is what did his knee in are missing the boat, pointing the blame in ‘A’ direction rather than ‘THE’ direction… the swing we see below is a very well controlled golf swing.
No excessive motion…better tempo…better cupped wrist at the top helping his transition move…much better ground work with his feet…his club veers left through impact with his beautiful rotation… club flies up high to the finish showing acceleration later in the swing…it’s all good…
All he needed was an entirely different pitching motion for distance control at that stage.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz9JA1E4nbk[/youtube]
Later on when his hips were still spinning through but his shoulders got steeper at impact and his hands started flipping he put much more strain on all parts of his body. His lower half and top half were heading in two different directions, it’s little wonder his knee eventually broke down. A later issue- not a younger swing issue. Throw in the fact that he plays half his second shots from thick rough and the torque on the body increases and the damage is getting greater as he gets older, even though he is in great shape.
When someone tells you to stay more on top of the ball throughout your swing, you are again placing unnecessary pressures on a body that wants to do something entirely different… I just see tragic results in this for his record chasing, for his body and for golf in general…he is finishing flatter in his follow through with arm pull not with body rotation…he is getting steeper…it is not looking good unfortunately, as much as people want him to do well, the tic-toc is getting louder and it sounds more and more like the tic toc of a time bomb rather than the tic toc of father time
Could not agree more.
Could not agree less.
With much caution, I just am not seeing these blatant differences you suggest two with his later swings (before Haney). His “Tiger Slam” (2000-01 where he arguably was swinging his best in life) looks very similar to his AM swings in the videos I watched slowly for last half hour. I am not even sure what Butch did to get him so good with even his driver but it is not really far removed in look from his AM swings. Maybe Butch was more “intention” tuning? Tiger seemed to have developed the “flip release” much later with Haney and it is very pronounced by 2009.
And speaking of AM swings, his shoulders look steep at impact in that video just as they did in 2000 and even 2005. So I guess I am just not getting this “steep shoulders” concept at impact. Tigers AM swing has as steep shoulders as Bubba Watson now. Also, from the limited info on Tigers clubs specs, he has always swung 1* upright irons. His 5i is reported to be 30 loft/63 lie for all his career (I was shocked to see that as I thought he would be flat).
Anyway, Tiger is currently at a low-point and looks lost and construed with swing mechanics. He did not look this bad/confused for his other swing changes and certainly played better. To miss a 200y wide fairway with a 3-wood is unbelievable for a Pro. I actually felt a little bad for him watching him in the thorn bushes looking for his sliced ball on TV at the Match Play Champs.
Budman…It’s not just about steep shoulders…he may have had steep shoulders then also but they weren’t steep all the way and all the time. He would let himself open up through impact and keep the club going thru the hitting area much better. He was athletic and knew the procedure through impact and beyond and his shorter, heavier equipment helped him achieve the intentions of the swing he knew worked…
His cupped wrist at the top and had the club crossing the line slightly in his younger days…this set him up beautifully for his feel for transition and path down…as time went on Butch got him more neutral with wrist and club at the top and he still knew what to do from that position.
Now we see him with an open wrist and laid off club at the top because of everyone worrying about his plane back…and he lost the feel for what he needs to do from there
His clubshaft is in no direct relation to his center (belt area) …the butt of the club is up dissecting his chest/sternum area if you drew a line up and extended it…and he can do nothing but throw his hands…what he is working on now with going steeper back and then flatter through the finish is not good… it is all being done with manipulation of hands, shoulders… not by cause and affect and it is really little wonder that he gets these wild shots… he is playing golf swing instead of playing golf and he is lost because he used to just play golf and his talent would shine through…now his talent and feel is being diminished and his head is a clutter of stuff out there wondering if the ball will go left OR right OR HOPEFULLY straight
Sergio has it going on good…this is much more in tune with the left photo of Tiger above…Sergio just needs to strike his putts like he hits a ball
Here’s another example…below…orange line is shoulder plane alignment…red line is shaft alignment
Rickie Fowler and Sergio Garcia
The shoulders aren’t the be all or end all…but more often than not we get the steep shoulders and stiff legs matching up with a right field throw of the club or a flip left of the club
It is entirely different to the body/shoulders/arms rotating around with the club all at similar speed…therefore keeping the club more in tune and line with the body center (the belly button/belt area).
And here’s a sequence of Tiger thru the years…very different release…the equipment has done some of this and the swing changes over the years have contributed also…
It took a long time to rid him of his talent like everyone has seemed to want to do the past 8-10 years…but he is having real problems on the course now unfortunately…his confidence has plummeted, his short game is lack luster as a result of confidence and these swing changes even creeping into his feel for those shots…his off course stuff hasn’t helped but he has really lost his feel for all things golf
Getting away from is Tiger a hitter or swinger, or would ABS do him well… all that aside, I (know this will never happen) would love to see him spend time with Butch again. I know people dump on Butch, but I really got the sense that Butch never got in the way of Tiger’s talent…
These other instructors or swing coaches, they seem to want to leave their ‘mark’ on Tiger. It’s terrible. What we do know of Sean Foley is he’s a ‘fan’ and ‘friend’ of the Stack and Tilt guys. He is a fan of staying over the ball, and we’ve all seen that video of Sean on the range with Tiger putting his club behind Tiger’s head so he can’t shift away from the ball. Nasty stuff.
I personally also believe his Tempo is ruined. If anyone has seen or read Tour Tempo, there is one fact that struck me in all of that… Tiger, in his dominance of the game, with heavy gear, and -hardest- swing on tour, had his slowest tempo ever. They list him as a ‘27’ I believe, whereas a Hogan was a ‘21’. (Two fairly opposite ends of the spectrum).
For years everyone has been shortening his swing, and it has become quicker, and erratic. It doesn’t fit him, it never has, and I don’t believe it ever will. I know this is probably B.S. to a lot of people, but I really believe he was suited to -that- tempo. The quick jerky stuff he does now has never helped him.
I tend to agree with you Prot. Sometimes changing an action can result in changes in timing, tempo, and other aspects, simply from being in different positions, dynamics and intentions. Just like walking down a street at a normal pace will see the arms get more involved when picking up the pace…which then changes other aspects of walking too.
Tiger has been a mystery to me also. I think he won 6 Majors and decided to change things up. I don’t get it really. It made no sense to me at the time and still doesn’t although to a smaller degree.
Unlike Faldo, who underwent changes to more effectively compete in majors, Tiger apparently underwent changes to win more, but why?- he was already on pace to break the record. Maybe it reduces to how he would break the record.
One of the things I’ve thought about is how some athletes like not only to be the best but challenge themself so that when all is said and done they’ve set a mark far beyond reach. Maybe he knew that passing Nicklaus’ record would eventually come, but what would really set him apart from Nicklaus? Maybe setting the record having done it with completely different actions.
Much like a professional driver who is not content being the best in Nascar only, they want to be the best in Formula 1 and Indy series as well, so no comparisons can be made between the styles as only the best of the best could win style notwithstanding. Maybe something along those lines drove him. Would love to be able to sit down and talk with him.
Is it arrogance, driven determination, or something else. 