Magic. I think this thread got started up during my exile on main street a while ago, I don’t remember some of this early stuff.
Here’s a link to some thoughts on Daniten Rotation that I’d mentioned to Macs. Some very interesting connections to this very quote by Bob T(a man among mice)
I’ve read a bit of this guy’s stuff in the link, and he seems like an interesting and thoughtful guy. I’m not sure of his whole deal so dig through the rest of his essays at your own will. They do seem well thought out though…
Yes I agree fully that the ankle position is, like many other positions, an effect…so I don’t want to spend too much time on it, but I’m so into my feet the last few months, I was just kinda curious about how they actually work. With other methods I use I don’t really pay too much attention to if the feet are working properly as I know they are providing the platform I need. However, with this hitting stuff…I think the feet are much more important than they are with a true CF action.
In that photo on page 2 it looks like Hogan is on a slight uphill lie so that may have something to do with how the weight was received by the foot.
Thanks Bom for you input…appreciated 
RR
Just trying out a picture post. Bought this for $5.00 many years ago from a guy who bought it for $3.00 at an estate sale. Near mint condition, hence the frame.
1957 1st edition… RR
That’s a beauty, RR… I’m a little jealous if truth be told
I like that your first edition photo is a photo of Hogan’s first edition… it seems right…
Out of my mind on Tuesday morning with nothing to do.
I’m sure it may not have happened all the time…but from watching Hogan films over the years I’ve seen on more than one occasion an interesting pattern of events as compared to perhaps common folk.
Ever noticed that when, during this cigarette years, he approached the ball on a tee he flicked his cigarette forward towards the target but somewhat left of that line…and after impact the tee flew in the air and finished well behind him and somewhat to the right of that line. So he had to walk back to get his tee…then forward to get his smoke.
One day when I was playing it struck me that I did just the opposite…I would flick my cigarette in back of me and to the right of the line as I decided to start my approach…and as for the tee- it finished in front of me and to the left of the line when the swing was over. Just the opposite…and just adjust an idle thought too. RR
One thing I noticed with Hogan is that he flatted his backswing even more after accident (he also went on a tear of wins)
He is a pic I put together a few months ago of 2008 Tiger and pre-accident Hogan, both playing a similar shot. It is at transition and you can see they are very similar. Tiger is more a modern Hogan than many want to admit. Just looking at this pic you can see Tiger just appears a but more athletic ready to spring to ball. Tiger is slightly a bit higher plane but his next move after this pic (his sit down move) moves it back to same area as Ben. Tiger also has a very flat wrist and Hogan had slight cup.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2002/bentig1.png
(why forum won’t let me post image links?)
Also, RR, you are WAY over thinking stuff noticing where tees land.
Looks can be deceiving. Not to get all deep and heavy, but you could do an analysis of Tiger’s life and golf swing over the last 6 or 7 years and there would be a lot of similarities in terms of what it looks like vs. what it actually is.
Ok…yeah you’re right.
I think it’s about time to think about learning how to post videos on Youtube. However, I’m thinking it may be a little more difficult than all the thinking I had to do in order to learn how to post a picture on this forum…but I don’t know…I’ll have to think about it first. Wait…on second thought it may not be as hard as I think. I think I’ll do it…
RR
I remembered seeing this clip a long time ago but could never find it again. Stumbled over it today and thought I’d share.
Its Hogan showing his slow motion drill. Pretty cool stuff. The dropping of the arms to the pivot, the rotation of the pivot and the arms right into impact.
The release he is showing was a bit of an eye opener for me as well 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE&feature=related
Dave
youtube.com/watch?v=0SLIxRTcPFQ&NR=1
I like how everything is so tight and connected here…
That is beautiful stuff . . .
Interesting and y’all may have covered this . . . but in that sequence the right arm is definitely “packed” . . . but it looks like the left arm is not “pinned” but then it gets “pinned” or “packed” . . . so I reckon it’s in the process of being “pinned and packed”?
Do you regard Hogan’s elbow as a punch or pitch elbow?
That would be pretty pitchy!
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Thx,
I have been struggling a bit differentiating pitch and punch. And while aiming for more pitch I’ve lost some of the hitting with the right hip feel.
Is there anything else than how fra you bring the bent elbow forward that separates the two?
If you got the book . . . . Look at the pics . . . it really has to do with the positioning of the humerous and thus the elbow . . . it really doesn’t have to do with the hip . . . the hip may be moving in space or spine tilting back . . . look at the pic and the position of the humerous “down and at the side” vs. “down and in front” . . . a more appropriate reference may be the shirt seem . . . is the humerous covering the seem or is the elbow leading it? 10-3-A and 10-3-B . . . Now y’all may have a different take on it . . . but that’s how I sees it. Would be happy to be corrected . . . as many concepts of mine have been . . . here and elsewheres. Hollaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
I have read the following several times over the years but since working on the ABS Modules – currently on Module 7-- studying it again has allowed me to see it in a new light. Thought this might create an interesting discussion.
On page 100 In Ben Hogan’s Five Lessons he writes the following: “As the player enters the impact area and the hands start to pass the right hip, it is almost as if his hands were holding a ball as they move toward the target, the left arm and hand leading, the right arm and hand following—positioned just the way they are on the shaft. The ball is about the size of the two hands. It is a heavy ball (italics added), heavy in the way a small-sized medicine ball would be. It takes muscles to throw it hard. Straight ahead of the player, maybe four or five yards ahead down his line of flight, stands a fairly large target, The center of the target is about the same height from the ground as the player’s belt buckle. As he shifts his weight from his right foot to his left to get all his power in his throw, the player flings the ball at the target just as hard as he can, whipping the ball with both arms and both hands, since he can throw it harder and more accurately that way. He wants that ball to travel on a line and smash into the center of the target so emphatically that it will knock the bull’s-eye right off it. (The forcefulness of this effort carriers the player all the way around in his follow-through).”
“The ball is about the size of the two hands. It is a heavy ball, heavy in the way a small-sized medicine ball would be. It takes muscles to throw it hard.”
Is this why Mr. Hogan practiced swinging a weighted club with the weight in the handle? Did he use a handle weighted club to help him achieve shaft flex? Did this contribute to the amount of shaft flex he achieved? Is this why he believed in playing heavy clubs?
“Straight ahead of the player, maybe four or five yards ahead down his line of flight, stands a fairly large target, The center of the target is about the same height from the ground as the player’s belt buckle.”
In order to hit a target, belt buckle high four or five yards away, would the shoulders need to be pretty level? Would an angled hinge be required so not to throw the club left?
“As he shifts his weight from his right foot to his left to get all his power in his throw,”
Apparently he wouldn’t have bought in to the stack and tilt method.
“the player flings the ball at the target just as hard as he can, whipping the ball with both arms and both hands, since he can throw it harder and more accurately that way. He wants that ball to travel on a line and smash into the center of the target so emphatically that it will knock the bull’s-eye right off it. (The forcefulness of this effort carriers the player all the way around in his follow-through).”
Did Mr. Hogan create this visual to promote a pivot driven“through the ball” action? If the target was in line with the ball would it promote a pivot stall and a flip of the hands? Is this what he thought of in order meet his objective of creating the greatest speed past the ball?
One comment: looking on page 98 and 99 at the sequence below the basketball drawings, it is interesting to note how deep he is at 4:30 and the position of the hands in the fourth picture from the left.
Nice work, Littlealm, it all does speak to his total body experience through impact…
Cheers for that.
I followed on reading from that section and the next bit is just great too- talk about nuggets, that book really does have them in there, and no matter how many times I go through it, it seems I never fail to find something I hadn’t fully noticed before…
“The great value, as I see it, of thinking in terms of this joint two-hand action is that it keeps the left hand driving all the time. During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly- that is, to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. They continue to supinate throughout the rest of the swing…”
I underlined that bit because it’s such an important thing to do, and it’s where those last three fingers really come into their own. And you just can’t do this if the left shoulder goes up.
I don’t think pitch as an elbow position is something you should ever strive for in and of itself and many do.
I view pitch as simply a byproduct of forearm rotation. It is also very encouraged by sufficient spine tilt and also flatter golf swings which should evolve from flatter lie angles. It’s not much more than a visual observation based study from a caddy view of the golf swing.
The ability to perform pitch lies more in the ability to aggressively rotate the torso post impact and fire the hands hard via forearm rotation for hitters. If you don’t have the dynamic actions to fire a deep loaded rocket, pitch = poison.
Swingers can also access it with a dump and roll release. But trying to get into pitch without a lot of other good things happening after that… not such a good idea.
At best another vapor trail of a quality golf swing, like the FLW.
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I agree with this . . . particularly on the “if you don’t have the dynamic actions to fire a deep loaded rocket, pitch = poison” . . . . I drank the Ben Doyle hemlock . . . then I mixed it up with some oval teen . . . put it in the microwave and drank it again . . . . then I got me some koolaid . . . iced 'er down and drank some more . . . then I took a shower in it . . . . S.U.I.C.I.D.E. G.O.L.F.
But I do have a question . . . . does A.B.S. have a categorization of a “punchy” looking right arm? If someone has that “look” or if their right arm works that way do you address it or leave it be . . . or am I completely out of my tree here? or is punchy a gradiant of pitch? Does it imply poor dynamics?
Just trying to figure this out . . . you can certainly find players who play golf from punchy looking? Is that a bad thing or just a thing?