Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Lag’s post right above here should be widely disseminated on any or all Hogan threads the web over. Kind of like an out of office reply you set up on your computer when you’re traveling or go on vacation.

Hogan is more analyzed than the Shroud of Turin and maybe revered as much. I have been a Hogan follower for years but until I understood the relationship between having the proper gear setup and his dynamics, and committed to the ABS program, it was like trying to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics without the Rosetta Stone.

You could go your whole golfing career trying and never get it. Why bother.

If you’re serious about Hogan, not trying to hit his positions, but want to start to feel his internal dynamics in your swing, you have to have the proper gear and commit to Lag’s program. Right now in my development I appreciate how wound Hogan must have been at the top and coupled with his superior extensor action, I can’t even image. And no wonder he could simply write, just fire the hips on the downswing and you’re good to go. I may be in the same auditorium as him but way in the back.

Paul C.

I agree, why don’t you pick up the ball and put it over there on that other site! Maybe you can skype with Doug about it!

Oh, hell no, I want nothing to with that, though it does provide me with reading entertainment.

Golf teachers, armchair enthusiasts etc… they are going to speak from their own frame of reference, whatever that is.
I don’t think you should listen to someone unless you have seen their swing in slow motion, and better yet, played golf with them.

I know a lot of teachers that won’t play with students. Why? Because they don’t play anymore and they don’t want to risk their reputations. The argument is that they teach and don’t have time to work on their swings. Well… I disagree.

I would NEVER take a lesson from an instructor that on occasion would not have the ability to beat me on a golf course.

As far as internet forums… I think people would be shocked if they actually saw the golf swings of the “expert” posters.
I have been shocked several times. Over the years, I have requested to see a posters swing… and once in a while they will post it… or send it to my email asking for confidentiality, which I respect and is fine.

What I learn more often that not, is that they are not going to have any idea what I am talking about, because their frame of reference is so far away from mine that we might as well be speaking different languages. Not so different than the movie Mars Attacks and for those who have seen it… shows how dangerous miscommunication can be! It might be the most hysterical movie I have ever seen.

While most of these expert posters I’m sure have good intentions… they really need to post their golf swings so people can see where they are coming from.

I posted a bit early on over at the SITD Hogan thread a few thoughts, but when one of the pro experts who was coming in with all these bizarre arguments about what Hogan did… actually posted his own swing… it was clear that no amount of discussion was ever going to convince him otherwise. Someone swinging steep with light upright modern gear is not going get it. They can’t. The pressures won’t manifest into the correct parts of the body, they won’t be felt and often won’t even exist for them. It’s Mars Attacks.

No doubt you can still learn things… but that would be other ways of hitting a golf ball of which there are many. But if it is a “Hogan” thread, then most of what they are saying is simply not correct.

At a most basic entry into Hogan… he was first and foremost a persimmon player… even well into the age of metal woods.
There is a reason he stayed with persimmon and telephone pole golf shafts.

Well, you made it back on the pages of dirtland Lag. An older version I am to understand, but still very impressive if you ask me.

Captured this, and wanted to post it, might even make it to my desktop. :sunglasses:
Lag.jpg

Anyone hear about the new rule maybe coming out in women’s tennis, maybe men’s too but I am not sure, wherin ‘grunting’ will not be allowed while returning a shot or serve. Wonder if that rule will ever come around for hitting a ball. :laughing:

If I were to have an out-of-office video message this would be it:

Hi, I will be out of the office learning to strike a golf ball like this guy:

advancedballstriking.com/lag_swing_2011.mov

If you still want to leave a message, please do, though I recommend you start walking the walk.

#DOING!

Yeah, me too Paul…a great message.

Hey, can that video be downloaded onto my computer somehow? I can watch that till the cows come home, even though it is an older version. Get a load of the divot…it’s amazing…fore left on the divot! :laughing:

Love it.

The big breakthrough for me has been the Super Slotting stuff. It’s not hard to identify it from the arm chair. It’s not just Hogan, but you see it with many great ball strikers. Gary Player, Knudson, Frank Phillips, Sergio of course. Nick Price flattened it out at transition as well as Faldo and many others.

So identify, but then how do you do it? People have all kinds of explanations of which none of them worked for me. I loved Sam Randolph’s explanation. “You take it back and then you slot it”. And yes, he is right… and he beat us like a drum for a decade. But I’m not sure he could really explain it to me other than just do it. But I am sure going to listen to Sam when he talks… even if he can’t articulate it to me, he might give an unknowing clue here and there during conversation.

My point is that I am more likely to get to the truth from someone that has mastered the move like Sam, than an armchair theorist.

So the layoff at transition can trigger two things. Most will come right OTT, very steep downswing and slice the hell out the golf ball.

The other way is to continue that flattening pressure down to P3 and set yourself up for a proper hit. Shaft on the Chi line and the face open. It’s not just Hogan that did this.

On the back end… we do see a lot of players working on the cut it left move post impact. I think Tiger is working on it also.
But where guys fail is that they do it from steep downswings. No doubt it is a lot easier to work it left post impact from a steep downswing plane and for that approach, upright gear is their answer. Steep, shut face coming down, cut it left with upright gear. This is what most guys are teaching from what I can tell. Club out if front of you, that kind of thing.
But this theory brings in the left side of the golf course in a big way. It’s just too tempting to come OTT in the quest for crisp contact especially under pressure. The fear of knowing that the “left card” is hidden in the deck is enough to send bailout right signals from the brain down through the synaptic gaps for the classic “block right” result.

You can’t really hit… I mean really hit with the club coming down steep.

So what we see are a lot of slot and dumpers… and a lot of steep and cut lefters… but we don’t see many who do both.
This is what Hogan did so proficiently and the only other player I ever saw keep it that tight is Peter Senior.

If you come down steep, you will never feel the orbit pull I talk about. This pressure is the direct effect of applying opposing forces in the golf swing. Much like wringing a towel.

I completely understand that many players and even instructors are not going to understand what I am saying. You have to feel this stuff. Feel it to believe it.

People love to dismiss it. That these “Hogan positions” can somehow be created by changing your grip, stance, tucking in an elbow, or sliding the hips laterally at transition. Well… good luck with that.

2 Likes

Here is the Vid in HD, so you can watch it in fullscreen and see the face…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auUOXnNf9iI[/youtube]

My problem is what most of you define as open at PVP 3 is in my world just neutral…

And at this picture it is in my world just perpendicular to the arc - remember Mr. Hogan came from the inside
low - so it looks open from this viewpoint but it is already perpendicular to the arc.
hogan446.jpg

I really enjoy Lag´s postings and learn allways from his posts. What I don´t get is that every poster
who is not in the ABS program is now an “arm chair Expert” C`mon.

Lag I have a question, I looked at the 1976 Ben Hogan Commercial footage and do you think
he is doing an Slap-Hinge Release or he couldn´t pressure the shaft anymore at age 64?

Interesting, because I release somehow similar:
CBP5.jpg
CBP55.jpg
CBP6.jpg
CBP7.jpg
CBP75.jpg

Thank you for your time…

Chris

It is absolutely neutral…if he stopped right there and then turned around and face the club with his body it would be neutral…but in relation to where his body is pointing it is open

Most people want to do this though…and if you turned around and got into position and faced that club with your body keeping the hands and club in place…that would be closed
closed.JPG

I like that Two, your observation about where ‘address’ relationships actually are. In the Kutcher picture, would you say if he turned his body all the way around, like you stated about Hogan being neutral, instead of Matt just making about a 1/4 turn clockwise to square up with his hands, the club would not only be closed but on the left side of his spine.

I used to examine that kind of stuff when ‘swinging’, but never thought about it before when ‘hitting’, so thanks for bringing that out as I think it is a very good piece for discussion. I know that when swinging and arriving at the top, I can turn and face the club and then set the club down from there and I really am in almost identical address relationships. It seems like the ‘address relationship’ is present throughout the entire circle if everything is in sync. Is about the same for hitting do you think. I know one of your videos mentions the "address relationship’ at the finish with ABS…which was a cool video I might add…so I will have to look at my P3 postion tomorrow as the open drop has been a bug-a-boo of late, but may not be anymore since I can almost sense while typing this where that dynamic is through body and spacial awareness.

Good commentary from down under land. :sunglasses:

I agree… it feels neutral to me also… but most players today with the steep downswings and upright gear are very shut in comparison… and of course because proper forearm rotation has fallen out of fashion in today’s teachings.

What I would call open is just were it should be.

The modern players embracing the steep shut downswing.

I don’t think Hogan would agree. Here he is demonstrating his downswing intentions.
23.jpg

If you followed Hogan’s advice, you would work the club into a much deeper slot like these much better strikers.

trevino2.jpg

So to slot it… you have to learn to do this.
Who nowadays does this other than Sergio?

Ben Hogan dtl_0002.jpg

The golf glove velcro logo gives an excellent guide to the amount of forearm rotation… look at the Trevino/Senior pic and compare it to the other dudes…

I made a video about this ages ago called Right Angle Golf…and no-one got it!!!.. but it seemed to show the difference between forearm rotation/ shaft steep or shallow coming down/ and the shaft being perpendicular to the spine
Was just having a bit of fun messing around with things but it really makes sense when you look at it with an open mind… and of course it gives and entirely different post impact look aso

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txk0fWSyLXw[/youtube]

One player that ive noticed that seemed to do all those 5 things very well was Calvin Peete, all the video ive seen of him it appears to me that he slotted it every bit as deep as Hogan and post impact he might have even stayed a bit tighter and maybe even rotated a bit more level and cut it left post impact just a much or more than Hogan with irons and a graphite driver. From what i read i dont believe he played with super heavy equipment with super stiff shafts. I saw this article and it mentioned that he changed from stiffer to weaker shafts before he won at TPC because he felt they were costing him accuracy. But i wondering do you see his swing as Hoganlike through impact with the same type of slotting and ripping the shaft left post impact without stalling or dumping? Is it unsual to be able to do this with lighter or weaker shafted clubs? Or are different forces at work because his clubs probably werent as stiff or heavy as Hogan? jacksonville.com/sports/golf/201 … lvin-peete

Calvin Peete had a great swing, and followed all the principles I teach in the golf swing. Calvin was not a long hitter and it must be remembered that he had a crooked or withered left arm. I don’t remember if it was a birth defect or a childhood injury. Ed Furgol was another.

In my opinion, the withered arms stopped the club from getting too far away from the body and they learned to swing the club around this disposition. Obviously it worked well for both.

Hogan was a long hitter and stressed the shaft with much more pressure than Peete. I’m not particularly surprised to hear that Peete played looser shafts. With a slower rotational speed it would be easier to control looser shafts especially if you are playing everyday on tour. If you have a feel for the shaft that you really connect with, then it’s not a big problem.

After reading this… I would suggest that stiff shafts typically don’t add distance. I don’t think you lose much distance either, depends upon how you swing. Stiff shafts take some time to adapt to. I usually give myself 3 to 6 months before I come to any conclusions. Peete switching shafts and going back to what he used to do makes sense, especially since he had won 9 times with the old shafts.

If you work into firmer shafts, you are open to swinging harder at it… but I think Peete also had back problems and with the withered arm, that might not have been a viable option. Go with what works.

Hogan’s clubs- from around The Power Golf time frame… sharp edge, no bounce, no offset

benclubs1.JPG

furgol.JPG

1 Like

Hitting balls on the range a few minutes ago and hit it the best I ever have. The sound was a crack and the impact was a hard compression, only had this feeling maybe 10 times since I began ABS. Watching some Greg Norman videos, this is what inspired the solid shots on the range. Think that I cut left correctly, but was not having enough vertical force. With Norman it is easy to see how hard he goes vertical.

Noticed that the club doesn’t go around his body as much as hogans post impact, but of course he does not fold. It looks as if he cuts left and goes vertical in one move that seems to be done together. I know that Norman comes in from 430 but must not get the club quite as deep as hogan. Hogan looks like he is rotating so hard post impact that the club cuts left, and the only reason it goes vertical is because his body is done rotating and that is the only place to go. I know that his body is forcing the club left and upward, but is it what each is doing pre impact that is causing the difference post impact. I know they are both using module 3, and one is the best ballstriker with the other being one of the best. When I concentrate to rip vertical post impact it makes a great ball flight, I am assuming that I have already cut left before I do this. I do not want this to develop into steep shoulders. Will I be able to avoid steep shoulders as long as I start module 3 from the right position. Two and Lag, can one of you tell me you think.