I am not sure if this is the right thread, but somewhere I was reading that Lag wanted to
build clubs like Ben Hogan´s = super flat,stiff, heavy, counterbalanced and 5 degree open with heel grind and reminders at 5 o´clock!
Did you ever tried this and experimented with flatter lie angles in the shorter Irons compared to the mid Irons like Mr. Hogan´s?
Chris
I did experiment with it… took an old Hogan 4 iron and set it up this way… I bent it really strong loft wise, then measured it so that when the face was fanned open, it was then back to regular loft. I then ground down the heel to suit and put in a grip reminder. Very stiff shaft. Then re added weight… but I couldn’t get it up to the weight I needed after grinding down the heel. I put lead in the shaft and some tape on the back but it was still a bit light. I could probably glue a big lead disc on the back of the club.
What I found is that you really have to rotate level very hard… and it really encourages all the right things in the swing.
I think there is something to it.
Coming away from it… I think I would need to really design a club that way from a raw forging… and get everything right rather than retro fitting an existing iron that is not quite set up for that. I would be interesting to see one of his clubs that was set up in such a manner.
It’s a bit odd that with his persimmons… they apparently were set up the opposite, quite a bit hook faced from what I understand.
I had an epiphany the other day while doing some pushups (bare with me)…
Who here has ever broken a bone? Well I did, and to this day I remember the evening my neighbor friend older brother was joking around and pulled me off a roof of a car I was sitting on. I was about 8 years old. My left elbow was broken and I wore a cast all summer. TO THIS DAY though I can not fully close it. No pain or anything but I can not touch my fingers of left hand to my left shoulders like I can my right side. So it never healed properly and locks early.
Hogan suffered a devastating accident. Wikipedia says he shattered his pelvis, collarbone and left ankle. So when I was trying to do a pushup and not able to go down all the way because of my left elbow it dawned on me everyone trying to replicate Hogan fully to the detail, are fools. Some of his videos at Youtube have multi-million hits. With all those injuries he SURELY has to be compensating and many little things we might think could be his “secret” could just be nuances unique to himself.
His principles and core concepts of rotation pivot, stuff lag/two preach, are actually the true goods we should take from hogan and move on. But the little stuff that people try to break down in old grainy 20fps video (like a slight bent arm through impact for one) we may just be seeing his compensations the same as if someone video taped me doing a pushup.
The worst part of trying to learn from watching Hogan swings is basically 99.9% of all footage we have of him is AFTER this accident. We have basically less than a handful of clear videos and still pics pre-accident to actually see what he was actually doing without having to compensate. If my elbow didn’t heal correctly, can you imagine how messed up his whole body was.
The fact that he went on to have best part of his career after that accident and those life-threatening injuries I think is just incredible. His principles worked and he was able to adjust but in all probability his career should have basically ended 1949.
We should never copy positions, unless you are an identical twin. Maybe see the range of motion/general swing for your own body type against someone similar…
We all have our own swing DNA, and it’s all about finding our best way of using it. Well said Budman, it’s just a shame we will never know what was going on in Hogans head or all the things he wrote down.
Instead we got a hacker golfer with an idea for a flat left wrist that got out of control and turned into a cult…
At least they don’t think it is all in the book…and that the book is 100% correct…oh, wait a minute, 
(channeling captain chaos) Kama sutra?
Now copying positions from the Karma Sutra from grainy 20fps film is a different matter…
Awesome site. Thank you Lag for allowing me to join this fantastic forum. First post and I would like to contribute this footage of the master at work. If you take into account that this was pre-accident, you can see Ben’s range of motion is greater. I feel the key is to look at the flight of the ball(draw/fade) and the forearm/hands actively working to shape the ball. Enjoy!
Found some footage yesterday on a disc I had…but had never watched… I have never seen this before…very cool
So I was speaking with a student today about the grip and also how Hogan gripped the club.
Basically we have a pretty strong left hand and a weak right hand. Now if you think about this…
The reason is directly related to forearm rotation.
If you put your hands out in front of you palms facing one another. You can actually rotate your left forearm nearly 180 degrees clockwise. I can go slightly more. However, the right hand will only be able to rotate clockwise about 90 degrees.
This is why because the left forearm can rotate clockwise about 90 degrees more than the left, it only makes sense to position the hands this way. By putting the right hand more counter clockwise on the club, this increases the range of motion of the right forearm so that the left can utilize more of it’s rotational possibilities.
Of course the forearms need to be strengthened and learn the proper spacial awareness protocols. Students here in the private area start directly attacking such an endeavor.
Certainly a lot of things to digest here…but I don’t think you have to see this swing in motion to get a sense of the heaviness of the golf club. You can see the pivot driven effort to move this heavy persimmon around his body here.
Frames 5-6-7-8 show a very stable left knee… only after P4 or frame 8 does it straighten some. There is a big hidden secret here waiting to be discovered for those who don’t know!
Frames 8-9-10 show the secret to Hogan’s powerful pivot action. It’s really stunning, and even more when you consider his age here.
Frame 5 is what ive been working on a lot. Having your M1 feeling right back there (it feels really back to get even close to where Ben is), gives you heaps of room to rotate through…
Thank you again Lag for this public forum with your insights-
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkkowK-F_xo[/youtube]
THis is Ben Hogan already 65 years old 1977 in the famous Coleman video…
There is still hope I can learn to hit the ball with his authorithy even if you get
older… impressive how he still compressed the ball hard with persimmon…
I had the wmv copy from Lynn Blake on my HD and converted it in BW. For some
reason I can see body motions better in black and white… OK, still blury picture quality - but a gem.
I think his slomotion demonstration (aka concentration drill) is so important because it shows how clearly Hogan understood that no matter what action he performed with the body the hands could always keep up.
Some thoughts on it…
Chris
Many things to ponder here…
certainly age (65) wasn’t stopping Hogan from masterful ball striking. It’s all still there… and I have no doubt that if Hogan
was not driven off the tour by his putting woes as Knudson and others were… he could have still won tour events in 1977 with this golf swing. Tom Watson showed us just recently that at 60, it’s more than possible to win a major championship on a properly set up golf course.
One of Hogan’s best kept secrets is in this photo. I say this because I have never really read it mentioned in any of his writings.
The answer to it… for those who don’t see it, I have posted in the module 8 forum thread. 
Hogan was not actively driving the right arm at the ball. This is orbit pull 101. If you are trying to “get to Hogan”, stop throwing your right arm at it.
If you are an instructor claiming to teach Hogan’s methodology, stop promoting a right arm throw.
Maybe stop doing it yourself?
I don´t think Mr. Hogan slapped with his right arm -
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqShgvC7CyY[/youtube]
But there is a relation how you use your arms, forearms and wrist pre thru and after impact and the resulting post impact pivot in my guessing… ( clear you have to come from the “right angles” prior)
I don´t think anybody on this site wants to look like this (even they earn a lot of money):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlzCoxiTdg[/youtube]
Thank you Lag for your time to look to my videos - you are bringing back my soul for golf…
I even buy now some Hogan blades to bend them to my liking…
I really apreciate your thoughts about all facets of Golf…
Thank you again, you are very generous to take your time and effort for this forum…
Chris
On the student side of the forum, we have been discussing a bit about alignment and aiming…
Here’s another cryptic quote from Hogan…
I find it fascinating that although golf is a target sport, Hogan makes little or no real mention of aiming in Five Lessons. But upon further study and insight, I feel I understand why he chose not to discuss it in more concrete terms.
Love it
Okay, I’m an idiot. I’ll bite.
Why?
Simply put,
we have the ability to curve the ball in the air, so we are not limited or confined to the ball rolling across the ground, being subjected to slope and break. Flying the ball through the air is golf’s ultimate freedom, and I might suggest this is why Hogan never even mentioned putting in Five Lessons.
We can move the ball with great degrees of freedom in the air through manipulating our impact dynamics, shot shaping and trajectory control. This frees us up to a great degree regarding our alignment and aiming procedures.
