Bradley’s podcast can be found on Podbean, but can be found elsewhere.
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Jeff,
A few points:
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You state:
John incorrectly believes that he invented the technique of “holding shaft flex” during the late downswing and early followthrough in a golf swing action.
I think you’re confusing (what should be obvious) sarcasm for a bold claim.
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From the wording in the following paragraph of your reply to @twomasters it seems that you might not know that @twomasters is Bradley Hughes (emphasis mine):
Your bold-highligted opinions reflect your personal/subjective opinions, but I have never seen a pro golfer “hold shaft flex” in the later downswing + early followthrough in a full (eg.driver) golf swing action, and you have provided zero evidence that it happens. Those videos of Bradley Hughes shows no evidence of him “holding shaft flex” during the later downswing and early followthrough.
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You write:
Your post-impact intentions can obviously affect the ball flight pattern if they affect the pre-impact clubhead path and clubface angle relative to the path . However, the “real cause” of the different ball flight patterns is what your body/arms/hands/club are doing pre-impact to cause those different ball-flight patterns.
But what you don’t seem to realize is that your classification of what is the “real cause” is in fact subjective. It’s your point of view, your perspective. This can be clearly understood by an analogy I gave in an early post, which I’ll repeat here for convenience.
When a batter runs to first, he or she can do so by running through the bag. If the rules were such that the batter could be tagged out for doing so, batters would take longer to be safe at first (due to slowing down by sliding or some such method to avoid running past the base). So what is the “real cause” allowing the batter to make it to first in the quickest time? Is it what he or she does just prior to reaching the base? Or is it the rule which allows running through the base, and thus the intention to do so? Each is a valid cause. Neither has any claim to being the “real cause.” It depends on one’s perspective.
If rotating hard post-impact were suddenly deemed no longer allowed by the rules of golf, the ABS method would not work for “conforming” strokes. Thus claiming that doing so is somehow not the “real cause” of controlling ball flight using those methods is just your bias.
By trying to claim the term “real cause” for your myopic viewpoint of what actually causes a human being to control ball flight, you are distorting the conversation and thus reaching erroneous conclusions about what John and Bradley are saying.
Said another way, instead of telling people who have made huge achievements in golf that they’re wrong, why not try to understand what they’re actually saying and then, if you must, translate that into a model with which you’re more comfortable, and with the maturity and understanding of knowing that your model is not the one true and correct way to accurately discuss the golf swing. Moreover, not only may your model actually be wrong, but if it contradicts what they say, consider first that that’s the case, or at any rate that your model may be too simplistic.
William
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William,
I now realise that twomasters = Bradley Hughes.
However, that does not change anything as I do not believe that pro golfers, who have a good playing track record on the PGA tour, understand golf swing biomechanics/mechanics better than less skilled amateur golfers who are experienced golf theorists (based on thousands of hours of study). Padraig Harrington has a great winning record playing golf professionally, but his you-tube golf instructional channel shows that he has a very poor understanding of golf swing biomechanics.
You wrote-: “By trying to claim the term “real cause” for your myopic viewpoint of what actually causes a human being to control ball flight, you are distorting the conversation and thus reaching erroneous conclusions about what John and Bradley are saying.”
Please be more precise - what erroneous conclusions do I have regarding JE’s/BH’s opinions?
Mudfoot,
I found that Bradley Hughes podcast where he interviewed Brendon Todd and I listened to the last 10 minutes. BT was mainly talking about the 4:30 o/clock approach and how the clubshaft then becomes parallel to the ball-target line at P3. I do not object to that golf instructional approach. In fact, I teach the same approach so there is nothing about the 4:30 o’clock approach that is ONLY intrinsic to the ABS-hitting technique and it also applies to the TGM swinging technique.
The major difference between the TGM swinging technique and the ABS-hitting technique is that an ABS-hitter is supposedly “holding shaft flex” during the late downswing and early followthrough. However, I have never seen John Erickson or any ABS-student “holding shaft flex” when performing a “real life” driver golf swing action where they hit the ball >280 yards. If you have video evidence of it happening - please post the video.
Jeff.
Here are several photos of me holding shaft flex well into the downswing and in fact holding it almost to impact strike.
2 iron
1 iron
4 iron
5 iron
this last one obviously has some shutter distortion but if you are basing your thesis on what you do or don’t see then this one shows backwards shaft flex also with a driver
You are totally wrong about being able to hold shaft flex beyond impact because ball collision will generally slow the shaft down BUT the intention of continuing to accelerate beyond impact is the golden ticket stuff that scientific minds will never comprehend.
I have a video somewhere that Johnny Miller states he could move the clubhead and shaft faster beyond impact than he did coming into impact and it was the reason why he could nail his shots at the flag and with correct distance control better than anyone during the early to mid 70’s.
Haha about the different flight patterns coming from what I did on the way down pre impact… If you actually watched the video I said that… but I had zero intention of doing anything pre impact. It was all post impact that made the result a reaction and not an action.. Thats the evidence!!!
You wanted Trackman evidence to show data to show the shots… I gave you the evidence and now it doesnt support any reasoning LOL
It’s like a broken record with guys like yourself. You cant do it. Dont know otherwise. So you must insinuate it is a fallacy…its really boring listening to people like this. They dont want to become better or even good… they just want to believe a formula they devised is correct, even when it isn’t.
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“However, that does not change anything as I do not believe that pro golfers, who have a good playing track record on the PGA tour, understand golf swing biomechanics/mechanics better than less skilled amateur golfers who are experienced golf theorists”
Laughable…because most good players dont feel the need to teach- they play. and most of them that try teach take no time to comprehend much except how they felt they swung and pass that along to their students.
I stopped playing and felt the need to teach. I spent a lot of time practicing and playing golf as a career, but have probably spent much more time learning he swing- the body, the teaching way to make people better.
Anyone can teach golf- but very few can actually teach golfers.
A lot of it because of people with your lop sided concepts of facts.
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Did you miss Brendon speaking about what he likes is the FEEL-based approach?
“…a feel-based golf swing versus a mechanical, put the club in certain positions…”
Twomasters,
I find your images very unconvincing. You need to read all the ABS threads ( + this NGI golf forum thread at https://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/966/john-ericksons-ideas-swinging-hogan ) where this issue has been thoroughly discussed and you will note that John has only demonstrated that he can “hold shaft flex” in the late downswing and early followthrough in artificial demo swings. I have never seen a “real life” video of a John Erickson driver golf swing action where he holds shaft flex during the late downswing and early followthrough. If you can present an example - please present that example.
You are seemingly implying that you can also “hold shaft flex” during the late downswing and early followthrough in a “real life” driver golf swing action. Please provide the video evidence - using a very slow motion video camera speed that clearly shows that the peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards during the entire late downswing and early followthrough to P7.4 and that shows that the clubshaft never bypasses the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) between impact (P7) and P7.4.
Another of JE’s ABS-hitting technique claims is that the lead hand must be accelerating in the later downswing and also through impact, but JE has never provided evidence that it is actually happening. I do not object to the value of the golf instructional “idea” that one should think of accelerating the hands/club through impact, but that does not mean that it is actually happening in reality. I have requested John Erickson to provide that “evidence” by being evaluated by the GEARS 3D system, but he has not taken up the offer of a free GEARS swing evaluation. Do you have any scientific evidence that the lead hand is accelerating in the late downswing just before impact and also beyond impact in any ABS-hitter?
You also wrote-: " Haha about the different flight patterns coming from what I did on the way down pre impact… If you actually watched the video I said that… but I had zero intention of doing anything pre impact. It was all post impact that made the result a reaction and not an action.. Thats the evidence!!!"
I am not disputing your claim! I only stated that your personal methodology of consistently creating a desired clubhead path in the later downswing as the clubhead approaches impact is not the only methodology, or necessarily the best methodology, of consistently achieving that desirable goal.
Mudfoot,
You stated that Brendon Todd is using "“…a feel-based golf swing versus a mechanical, put the club in certain positions…” technique.
First of all, what he actually stated is that he wanted to “feel” the right elbow bypassing the right pectoral area of the thorax as a “feel”. That is very similar to the “feel” that is the basis of the 4:30 o’clock TGM swinging technique. You are incorrectly presuming that the TGM swinging approach is only based on an technique of “putting the club in certain positions”, but that only shows your level of ignorance regarding my personal methodology of teaching/performing a TGM swinging action.
Jeff.
Sorry, but you’re intent on being contrary and choose to be mistaken once again Jeff. That’s a direct quote from Brendon. The only thing for certain is that you are constantly provoking others while intentionally taking words out of context. The very definition of a troll.
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You are surely taking the piss now Jeff.
My images were unconvincing? A shaft holding flex with the head back behind the grip is unconvincing?
You have no interest in these discussions. - just here to rebel.
I’d be happy to vote you off the island so the people that actually want to learn proper ball striking can and the ones that don’t (you) can get back to the normal broadcast
Twice I was top 10 in total driving stat on the PGA Tour- there’s your evidence. It’s called Advanced Ball Striking for a reason
I am done with you- as we all should be.
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Twomasters,
You wrote-: “You have no interest in these discussions. - just here to rebel.”
I think that your comment is infantile and more reflective of the behaviour of an immature adolescent.
I have repeatedly explained many times that a convincing capture image must have a certain image quality - as seen in these capture images from a John Erickson video.
These capture images of John Erickson come from a slow motion video where the frame rate was slow enough to capture these good quality capture images. That’s the type of image quality I expect and your blurred images (showing only one moment in time) are unconvincing.
These capture images of John Erickson - showing that the peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards throughout the entire late downswing and early followthrough - are very compatible with a “holding shaft flex” technique. So, I do not doubt that John was “holding shaft flex” during his late downswing and early followthrough in that particular swing action.
However, that particular golf swing action - [Connecting Module 1 with Module 3 with Advanced Ball Striking - YouTube](Connecting Module 1 with Module 3 with Advanced Ball Striking - YouTube - is biomechanically unnatural and artificially contrived. You can clearly see that JE’s body/arm motion is unnaturally slow in his early downswing and that he then rapidly speeds it up when he reaches the ~P3 position. That never happened in his “real life” driver golf swing when he played professionally and it certainly never happened in Ben Hogan’s driver golf swing action.
You also wrote-: “Twice I was top 10 in total driving stat on the PGA Tour- there’s your evidence.”
That’s only evidence that you are a great driver of the golf ball. However, you have provided no definitive evidence (of sufficient quality) that you were actually “holding shaft flex” in your late downswing and early downswing in your driver golf swing action.
Jeff.
Jeff, I am not going to waste my time flying across the country, spending several days of my life to prove what I already know to be true… so that I can convince a couple of naysayers on the internet that will simply move the goal posts again with new arguments etc… just to keep jerking the chain.
Jeff, you said it was not possible to hold shaft flex into impact. I shot a video and showed it was possible because I in fact did it. What I did is also EVERYTHING we are striving for in ABS and the Module work. There is NOTHING artificial about it.
Vicious hand and forearm rotation from P3 into impact. Vicious post impact pivot thrust to keep the shaft moving. I did this WITHOUT A BALL… and I did this hitting a driver with full rotation.
To hold shaft flex, you MUST NOT start the downswing quick or you will NEVER be able to keep pressure in the shaft. This IS THE PROBLEM with lightweight modern drivers. I don’t play these clubs for this reason. I have ZERO interest in losing pressure on the shaft tangentially through the strike.
My feeling on the modern drivers is that they are capable of offering a golfer to greatly increase their velocity… but NOT acceleration.
You know the difference.
I suggest players use the technology to blast the ball out there when appropriate… a wide open hole with no penalty for off line drives… swing away, take a rip at the frying pan and use it as a tool as you would a sandwedge. A specialty club with purpose. Don’t use it on every hole unless the 14 tee shots are all wide open pastures.
We need to be concerned more about the other 60 shots in a round of golf that require the ball be struck a specific distance… not just swinging for the fences.
As far as the shaft flex debate… the reason you don’t see it… is because CF removes most of the visual backward curve in the shaft as velocities increase to 100 mph or greater. There is tremendous force acting downward or stretching the shaft longitudinally. Because the shaft is made of steel, it doesn’t stretch much, but the resistance pulls out the curve in the shaft into a straight line so you can’t see it. But that does not mean that the shaft is void of kinetic energy from the “holding shaft flex”… it is there. It’s like electricity Jeff, you can’t see “the energy”… but when you touch a hot wire, you get shocked or burned.
Jeff, you act like because you can’t see electricity, it’ can’t be real. I have not seen physical visual evidence to suggest that electricity actually exists. Until I see the electricity moving along a wire, I will not believe it exists nor will I consider that possibility that it can’t be seen.
I assume you have read chapter 2 of The Golfing Machine. Even Homer Kelley understood this element of holding shaft flex and that it could be masked by longitudinal acceleration or CF straightening it out to the eye.
I showed you Jeff that holding shaft flex can be done and how to do it. There is a method to it… and you CAN’T do what I did with a dead hands swingers release. Now THAT cannot be done.
You must apply a form 3 lever system where the force applied is BETWEEN the fulcrum and the weight. This is the forearm rotation, hand action we teach in ABS.
That extra tangential pressure exerted against the grip from the right hand puts FEEL into the hands of the player so they can tangibly FEEL where the clubface is at through the strike. This is REAL STUFF… not feel isn’t real nonsense. This is why Hogan said “I wish I had three right hands” or why Gary Player said countless times "Accelerate, accelerate, accelerate!
This is not imaginary stuff, it’s not feel isn’t real nonsense, it’s not only proven by GEARS or Trackman etc. It’s been applied by many great players and strikers for generations of great ball strikers.
I have shown PROOF that it can be done, and you can keep moving the goal posts, but I am asking you at this point to do this on your own site. We will no longer be endlessly rehashing the validity of this to appease a handful of chain jerkers who simply are here to be overly argumentative to feed their own narcissism.
Jeff, you have a right to your opinion etc… no one questions that, but for some reason you don’t like being proven wrong. You should be happy that I showed this to you, and how to do it… it should help you with your understanding of the golf swing.
Those interested in Jeff’s views or opinions, feel free to visit his site and discuss how John Erickson held shaft flex to impact, a true golfing Houdini that seemingly has defied the laws of Jeff Mann’s school of physics etc.
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Nobody is interested in @JeffMann Its pretty obvious his only agenda is to keep copy and pasting the same sequence of you not holding shaft flex. The fact that he sits on someone elses website doing this day in and day out fulfills in his mind he right and this whole method is proved wrong. He adds no video of his conclusions just constant dribble wasting the efforts of many who want to learn ABS. He may have his right to his opinion, but to copy and past it repeatedly after many explanations at some point he needs to move on. He has become more an nuisance than a essential participant in ABS. In fact, he is accomplishing exactly what he wants a disruption for others to focus on what is being taught. The disrespectful nature toward proven tour players who have actually made careers is plain repulsive. Anyone can sit behind their keyboard and make grandiose claims but only a few get to test the skills at a level against the worlds best. @JeffMann has been a troll on this website since 2012 I heard. There is only one conclusion I have for him.
I recommend a removal from this website
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Hey @Ayersjj
I wonder if Jeff is rehashing all the same things not to be contrary, but rather to learn it so that he can try and re-teach it without proper acknowledgement! “Forget what I told you before about the golf swing… I guarantee this will work…I know a expert who said…”
You ARE surely taking the piss now Jeff.
Mud, this pic shows you why this guy has got to go. Of all the posts @JeffMann @Dubious have their dribble at the top of ALL posters. They are not encouraging anyone to work the ABS system. This website doesnt need trolls that want to disrupt with repetitive vomit against proven tour players. They have their own website they can rub each other.
JE @lagpressure just asked him nicely in his last post to stop but he immediately responded with another copy and paste post.
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Great points all. In that case I third the motion to kick them off of the island.
Jeff,
I am not one to make excuses, but you seem endlessly insistent upon an explanation for these BBG videos etc.
Here are the facts. ABS website was essentially gone due to PHPBB forum code language being rendered obsolete on modern computer operating systems, iphones, browsers etc. Every expert I had spoken with said there was no way to fix it and it was just technology moving along etc… tough luck.
If you had tried to log in here over the last few years you would know this to be true. The site was gone.
Mare Island Golf Club established in 1892 by the US Navy shut down and is now a pasture for turkeys and deer. The course can’t be played and to be honest, it was the sole reason I got the golf bug again after not playing for 13 years 1995 though 2008.
So the site was gone, my home course was gone, and toss in COVID and I did not play golf again or barely hit a ball from 2019 till 2022.
My Mom is 89 and I am taking care of her daily as well.
That being said, Justin Tang, an ABS pro from Singapore calls me earlier this year and basically insists that ABS needs to have some kind of internet exposure, or make a transfer to modern social media sites if the site is not coming back. He offered to assist in this process. At the same time, William Hanisch single handed, was able to write new code and migrate the entire 50 gigs of ABS databases onto this new platform we are using. The site comes back, and Justin gets in touch with Brendon DeVore and suggests he come to the deck and do a shoot here for his YouTube channel which Justin felt could be beneficial to both.
That happened in June 2022.
I had barely swung a club in several years, but I did catch a lot of salmon and halibut.
I know how to swing a golf club and as rusty as I was for the shoot, I called out EVERY SINGLE SHOT I hit in advance, and executed the exact ball flight I predicted on cue every time. All the credit to the ABS Methodology. I would challenge anyone in the world to a “you don’t get to hit a ball for one year match” and we go play.
As far as the swing sequence you keep posting… I was hitting all kinds of different shots, demonstrating stuff, abbreviated swings, showing Brendon and Mike things to work on etc.
My first round in three years I played with Al Barkow and shot 73 on a tough windy afternoon at The Metropolitan Golf Links in Oakland. I certainly didn’t feel I had 66 in the bag that day, but I got it around just fine.
Now, since then, after ABS is somewhat back in the spotlight, back online, and I am back teaching etc… I have been getting back in shape, and swinging the club much better than I was at the BBG shoot.
Looking at the vids, I don’t see myself losing shaft flex, actually considering all things, I was quite happy I was able to be as dynamic as I was. I am also a few years older… 58 now.
Over two months have passed, and I and spending time working on my technique and regaining some of the speed and strength I had lost due to inactivity. It comes back quickly and clearly this can be seen in the more recent videos I have posted.
So in closing, Jeff, I am flattered by your obsession with my golf swing. A washed up touring pro who laid off for 13 years, then again for several more but is still able to gain enough interest that you are dedicating threads to this old dogs golf swing on your own website.
That being said, we will no longer be having these holding shaft flex discussions ad nauseam.
I spent the time showing you it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE… with or without a ball, will a full backswing, shoulder rotation etc… and I have explained to you the masking effect of CF stretching out the shaft at higher swing velocities. This is all nothing more than common sense, and I have also showed you HOW it is done and how you can apply this to your own golf swing… or others.
So obviously you have your own website etc, and feel free to post as you wish over there about it can or can’t be done, or needs this or that to be proven to your own personal standards… I have certainly proved it to ABS Standards here … it can be done in reality.
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Here is a pic from a video I made for V1 sports. On the left it is showing how over acceleration on the downswing (swinger) unkicks the shaft and stalls the body
On the right is full intent to accelerate 3 feet past impact and use the hands as active engines. The shaft stays flexed and the body reacts to motion and doesn’t stall
Taken with the same camera minutes apart so we know shutter distortion is not the issue.
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