This is Hogan’s swing early in his career when he was battling a hook. Not an ideal photo to be analyzing because his superior ballstriking didn’t start until later.
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feelversusreal,
You stated that his superior ball striking didn’t start until later.
OK - so, here are followthrough capture images from his famous slow motion video, which was filmed in his later career.
Note how rapidly his clubshaft is bypassing his lead arm between image 3 => image 4, and note how little his lead hand has moved targetwards between image 3 => image 4. I don’t believe that he is “holding shaft flex” during his early followthrough in that particular golf swing action.
By contrast, I can readily envisage that he could be “holding shaft flex” in his early followthrough in the following particular golf swing action - where his lead hand is not slowing down in the early followthrough and where the clubshaft is not bypassing his lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective).
Jeff.
His club is going past his lead wrist, that hasn’t broken down, in both the SWWOG and the bottom pictures and in virtually the same fashion. This despite I note you selecting some ancient picture of him and one from a more rearwards camera angle in the bottom series of pictures which accounts for the differences you point out lol. And which lead wrist is rapidly going from flexed to extended and pronated to supinated.
Well how about from this ahead perspective. Club is clearly advanced
well past the lead wrist. Presumably you also see post impact shaft stress?
And anyone who has seen the previous frame knows the hands were massively bent and rotated back and he is accelerating that club through the ball.
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Bulletfade,
You wrote-: “His club is going past his lead wrist, that hasn’t broken down, in both the SWWOG and the bottom pictures and in virtually the same fashion. This despite I note you selecting some ancient picture of him and one from a more rearwards camera angle in the bottom series of pictures which accounts for the differences you point out lol. And which lead wrist is rapidly going from flexed to extended and pronated to supinated.”
There are two reasons why a clubshaft can bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) in the early followthrough - lead wrist bending (flipping) or a rapid counterclockwise rotation of the lead arm/forearm.
The latter explanation pertains to the following two capture images.
If the clubshaft bypasses the lead arm in the early followthrough (from an angular rotational perspective) - whether it is due to lead wrist breakdown or lead forearm supination - then it cannot possibly be in a condition of lag tension.
In your last photo of Hogan hitting an iron, you stated-: “presumably you also see impact shaft stress”.
I can see the peripheral shaft bent backwards - presumably due to collision with the ball-and-turf. That pattern of peripheral bending back of the shaft after ball/turf impact does not mean that the golfer is using a “holding shaft flex” swing technique.
Here are capture images of Michelle Wie hitting an iron.
Her peripheral shaft is bent forwards in image 2 showing that she is not “holding shaft flex” in her late downswing. However, her peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards in image 4 due to ball/turf collision and it is not due to the fact that she is using a “holding shaft flex” technique.
Jeff.
The lead wrist has zero to do with holding shaft flex as I clearly demonstrated in my last post.
Jeff, what you don’t understand is that the golf swing is actually 3D not 2D.
In the 2D world of looking at golf swings on a screen… we only have up/down---- Left/right… not through the screen.
It’s the through the screen that you are not considering. By pulling the shaft hard left post impact with aggressive pivot rotation, this is the main ingredient in holding shaft flex. The left wrist can be flat, cupped, the shaft can be ahead or behind the hands visually in a 2D view. The acceleration is moving through the screen and away from you in 3D… which you can’t properly see in a 2D view.
Remind yourself that the club is working on an inclined plane that isn’t visible from a caddy view picture. That inclined plane gets flattened out in a 2D view.
This is why we study the golf swing from caddy and DTL view… so we can get a sense of the third dimension which is every bit as critical as the flattened 2D version (caddy view)
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John,
I totally disagree with your opinions.
I agree that the pull of the club handle is directed inside-left after impact, which means that it is obviously happening in a through-the-screen manner (= 3rd dimension). However, I cannot perceive that one can be “holding shaft flex” in that 3rd dimension if the clubshaft has bypassed the lead arm from an angular rotational perspective and if the clubhead end of the club is ahead of the club handle (where the pull is being exerted) in that 3rd dimension.
Imagine a child pulling a toy car along level ground using a piece of string. If the string is taut, then that is equivalent to the concept of lag tension. If the car moved faster than the child’s hand pulling the car, then the string would be lax, and not taut, and lag tension could not exist. If the child pulled the car up an inclined path that is angled 45 degrees (relative to level ground) then the same principle applies. The string would only be taut (implying the presence of lag tension) if the child’s hand (holding the string) was ahead of the toy car. If the toy car gained momentum (for some reason) that allowed it to travel faster than the child’s hand up the inclined plane, then the string would become lax and lag tension would not be present. The same principle applies to the clubshaft that is moving up-and-inside along the ~45 degree angle of the swingplane in the early followthrough. If the clubshaft gains a lot of momentum through impact so that it travels faster than the lead hand during the early followthrough so that the clubhead end of the club is ahead of the club handle in the third dimensional inclined plane of the swingplane, then lag tension cannot exist. That is what I believe is happening in those early followthrough capture images that you posted of Knudson and Hogan.
The clubshaft was traveling faster than their leading arm/hand through impact (from an angular rotational perspective) and it bypassed their lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective). Some biomechanical phenomenon had to happen to make it biomechanically possible for the clubshaft to bypass the lead arm as a result of its gained momentum through impact - either lead wrist bending and/or lead forearm counterclockwise rotation. If you look at Knudson’ lower radial bone in his lower lead forearm it does not look like it has rotated counterclockwise, but his lead wrist is obviously bending. In Hogan’s image, one can clearly see that his lower radial bone in his lower lead forearm has rotated a lot counterclockwise between impact and that early followthrough image, and he may have little lead wrist bending happening during that early followthrough time period. However, in both of those two pro golfers, the clubhead end of the clubshaft is traveling faster than the lead hand holding the club handle end of the club - as perceived from the perspective of angular velocity - and therefore I cannot envisage how lag tension can be present in those capture images.
Addendum added later:
Here is a copy of John Erickson’s image showing how he holds shaft flex pre-impact and post-impact.
Here is an enlarged image of the early followthrough time period.
Note that his hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact and also during his early followthrough as perceived from an angular rotational perspective where the clubshaft is moving up-and-inside parallel to the swingplane in the early post-impact time period. Because his hands are ahead and because the clubshaft has not bypassed his lead arm from an angular rotational perspective, the conditions for a “holding shaft flex” scenario are being met. Note that he does not allow his lead wrist to rapidly breakdown (extend) and he does not allow his lead forearm to rapidly rotate counterclockwise in his early followthrough and that prevents the clubshaft from bypassing his lead arm, which will cause the clubhead end of the club to get ahead of his hands from an angular rotational perspective.
Those conditions are not being met in those early followthrough capture images of Knudson/Hogan that John posted.
Jeff.
Let me chime in Jeffro. If ur claim is that because one sequence of Lags orbit pull swing doesnt look like hes got pressure in the shaft only he would know. Many great ball strikers have that tension more or less thru their career. Hogan best described it as fleeting. On the other hand, certain methods will”maximize” the sensations of pressure of the right while pulling of the left all the way into the finish. Many of us have experienced pressure “flex” in the shaft with just about every method used but some achieve better results. IMO, your trying to disprove something about Lags efforts to maximize and capture that tension to be repeatable. Barking out he cannot do that is silly bc anyone thats played and practiced this great game more than 2 hours in a range session has a hint of that experience. I can even flip it and feel the catapult of pressure in a moment of the arc bottoming. I like your diligence but me thinks it would be better used to add in a more positive direction please. My last 4 rounds have been 73,74,76,75 in a more Fred Couples flip motion and know its not as powerful as Lag is entertaining here. When Jimmy Ballard told me I must learn to spring the shaft better thats the goal. Better……gltu bro 
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The below are measurements made by strain gauges attached to a Driver and 5 iron for 9 pros back in 1999. The tool was called ShaftLab and could measure the lag/lead shaft bend and also clubhead droop.
For the 9 pros tested you can see that all the shafts show forward shaft bend (ie. Lead) and no lagging shaft bend approaching impact (no lag tension). Inverse dynamics also show that there is a net negative couple being applied via the hands on the grip approaching impact (see the typical graph below of a Major Winner). If you look at the blue graph, the couple (ie. basically a torque) exerted by the hands drops below zero (ie. negative torque) approaching impact which means ‘forward shaft bend’ (see images further below to give you a visual idea).
The physics says that a negative couple at the grip can only mean forward shaft bend (using Newtons 3rd Law).
Dave Tutelman (who is a golf scientist and expert on golf shaft technology) has a very useful website and here are some of the extracts.
The Swing (tutelman.com)
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Conclusion: the clubhead is pulling the hands around as fast or faster than the hands can move under their own muscle power. So the hands just can’t keep up well enough to apply a hit that could increase clubhead speed.
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A shaft is a string at impact! That means that, during the less than a half millisecond of impact, there is nothing your hands can do at the grip that would produce a different ball flight than if the shaft had just been a string. Any strength you want to exert on the clubhead needs to be done during the downswing; there is nothing you can do to help during impact
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Tom Wishon has been the Chief Technical Officer of Golfsmith, and now has his own golf club component company. His company is recognized as an innovator, and he is the world’s foremost advocate of custom fitted golf clubs. In his book “Common Sense Clubfitting” (chapter five on shaft fitting), he writes:
“The condition of the shaft being slightly bent backward with the head lagging behind the shaft is very rare in the game. This is because the swing skill plus strength that is required to maintain radial acceleration and the wrist-cock angle until very late in the downswing is such that very, very, VERY few golfers can do this. Far more common are the conditions in which the shaft arrives at impact either straight or slightly bent/curved forward with the head in front of the forward curve of the shaft.”
In other words, it takes more athletic ability than almost anybody possesses to apply a positive wrist torque late enough in the swing to be helpful. (If I may add my own opinion, not Wishon’s words: It isn’t just strength; it’s also speed. Late in the swing, centrifugal force is whipping the clubhead toward impact. The wrist-cock angle is being dragged out very fast, so it takes a lot of hand speed to even keep up, much less help it along.) One other thing he mentions: we can tell if the wrist torque is negative or positive on the basis of shaft bend. That is important, and we will come back to it later.
I hope that helps ABS forum readers to be a bit more broad-minded about what is happening in a typical tour pro golf swing.
I actually gave up 55 mins of my life and did watch one of Jeff Mann’s videos. It had its positives for what a tour player does in his motion. I can assure Jeff, if he just practices a few 430 path drills. He will feel exactly what he preaches from hip high to the follow thru. Pulling the handle in will give you that level hip pivot you preach. It will truly feel like your going into and beyond impact with a 2x4
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Dubious,
For sure, forward shaft bend and shaft droop is completely normal. I don’t think anyone argues that’s what happens in most, or nearly all swings. That’s what makes Lag’s claims interesting to many.
Who knows if it’s true, it’d certainly be interesting if someone went through the effort to get definitive proof. What Jeff has posted is not definitive proof.
In either case, the intention, it seems, is very helpful to Lag’s students.
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Dubious,
We are not talking about typical tour players… most are using swinger releases… so all those charts etc are not likely applicable.
Until you understand hitting… it’s just not going to make sense, and you will keep relying upon those who support swinging protocols…
Again…
I posted photos of holding shaft flex with a bent left wrist well past impact. If the wrists are firm and structured through the strike… which is what I teach… firm grip and this also stabilizes the clubface for off centered strikes… (Which is extremely helpful for scoring)
It’s the core, the torso/ pivot acceleration that is key here … not keeping hands ahead of the clubshaft. For a hitter, it has nothing to do with left arm vs shaft angles.
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@JeffMann I think you’re missing the point. Shaft flex is a byproduct of acceleration. In order to have control of this acceleration - you need leverage. This can happen in a variety of ways (e.g., Trevino, Hogan, etc.).
This is probably the most ideal in terms of 2D/3D because it’s obvious the leverage pull is toward the sky.
lagpressure
How do you define ‘Hitting’? Are you saying that you are applying active torque to the grip like a hockey slap slot with a split grip?
Or
Are you just thrusting /pushing the grip forward with your arms and hands?
Or
A bit of both using your arms and body pivot?
Remember that the quicker muscles are being contracted the less force they can apply. It’s called the Force Velocity curve.
Therefore, it’s going to be difficult to keep applying ‘Hitting’ forces/torques to the club the faster your muscles are having to contract to keep up with the club.
Personally, I don’t think any form of ‘Hitting’ is superior to ‘Swinging’ in generating clubhead speed. If it were, then I suspect at least some tour pros would be using the technique. Which golfers past or present do you think were ‘Hitting’?
With regards stabilising the clubface for ‘off-centre hits’, note what Dave Tutelman said about the club shaft ‘may as well be a string through impact’. There is nothing you can do with your hands for the 0.5 msec the clubface is in contact with the ball that will influence the clubface. The clubhead may as well be viewed as a free moving mass disconnected from the golfer for that incredibly short collision time.
I also looked at your video below
This is where the centre of the ball is actually hit by the toe with a swinging vs hitter protocol (which I imagine uses a firmer grip pressure to reduce clubface rotation through impact).
I have taken frame images and compared them as per below but I think the camera position has moved because some of the background patterns/indentations in the mat don’t look the same (see the red arrows). I drew white horizontal lines to join up the ball position markers and to get some idea of the angle of the ball trajectory.
I cannot see that much difference in the dispersion of the ball, but this demonstration is not very convincing because we don’t know for certain what the clubface angles and clubhead path were at impact. Further, the movement of the camera causes parallax changes which makes an accurate comparison very difficult.
I also noticed that the ball seemed to ‘blur’ more in the swinging image frames which suggests that it was moving at a faster speed.
To resolve this debate, it would be nice for someone to video your swing with a ‘Phantom Camera’ to check whether you can create lagging shaft bend at/through impact.
@Dubious You said this below 
In all respect thats your opinion. But, alot of guys here have played against the top players in the world and competed in major championships. If you are a swinger and never tested the two different motions under pressure your opinion is just empty, sorry.
The swingers core slows down and the right arm fires “down the line”. Have great players used this method? Yes. But, they admire the George Knudsons, Hogan and Trevinos of the golfing world bc they are superior ball strikers. That doesnt mean someone cannot be a great player as a swinger but a ball-striker comes from hitting and torquing the shaft.
Simply grab a club and put it against a door jam. Try to bend the shaft. The best way to do this is lean into it with the whole core of the sternum legs and connected arms. Now do it with just the arms and you will find the different feels between the swinger and the striker.
Put it under pressure of a major championship and you would see a swinger having an ultra short game to compensate for his miss hits.
Thats not an opinion. Facts are that most great ball-strikers are hitters not swingers.
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John,
You wrote-: "Again…
I posted photos of holding shaft flex with a bent left wrist well past impact. If the wrists are firm and structured through the strike… which is what I teach… firm grip and this also stabilizes the clubface for off centered strikes… (Which is extremely helpful for scoring)
It’s the core, the torso/ pivot acceleration that is key here … not keeping hands ahead of the clubshaft. For a hitter, it has nothing to do with left arm vs shaft angles."
Your explanation makes no sense when it comes to what is happening through impact in those Knudson/Hogan images. I agree with you that if you keep the lead wrist firm and structured through the strike, that you could still be “holding shaft flex” in the early followthrough - even if the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact due to the fact you were coming into impact with a markedly bent lead wrist where the clubhead is already ahead of the hands at impact. However, that is not what is happening in those Knudson/Hogan early followthrough images. They come into impact with the lead hand ahead of the clubhead and with a FLW or slightly bowed lead wrist and then their lead wrist structure changes rapidly through impact due to the fact that the clubhead end of the club has a greater angular velocity than their lead hand from an angular rotational perspective and that causes the clubhead end of the clubshaft to bypass their lead hand from an angular rotational perspective. Under those conditions - where the lead hand is ahead of the clubhead at impact and then rapidly becomes behind the clubhead very soon after impact (as perceived from an angular rotational perspective in the third dimensional plane of the swingplane) - lag tension cannot be present.
Jeff.
Ayersjj,
You wrote-: "That’s not an opinion. Facts are that most great ball-strikers are hitters not swingers"
Where is the evidence? You have to show that the peripheral clubshaft is always bent back throughout the late downswing and also through the strike into the early followthrough and you also have to demonstrate that the lead hand is accelerating through impact. I have never seen that “evidence” ever presented for any great ball-striker’s driver swing.
Jeff.
@JeffMann Swingers vs Hitters. There are plenty of great “ball strikers” Hitters not swingers as evidence watch this video below. . The down the line “swinger” release of right arm isnt as effective period. I can do both and have competed with both. All my tournaments gravitate to a full body core motion where flex in shaft is a key. If u want to debate whether the flex is bowing a certain way Im not really interested in dialogue directional torque. What I do know a swinger method fails consistently at higher levels. If u didnt make the transition and now at 74 years of age keep harping the old method is ideal thats your decision. I know all my tournament play was the best when core was engaged and continued theu the strike never stalling out.
Striking using force vs striking using momentum. Simple enough
f=ma. Hitting
p=mv Swinging
So the difference would be given a equal velocity at impact… say 100 mph.
The hitter coming into impact with the clubhead accelerating and the swinger’s club not accelerating… (Jeff Mann). Without a ball, the swinger has already reached max acceleration somewhere in the downswing. The hitter has not.
Forget about the ball… if there was no ball to slow down from the collision… better to think of it this way… because a golf swing does not need a ball to be executed. A golf shot does. We are talking about the golf swing and applications of momentum, forces, pressures…
interesting how golf’s scientific community that embraces things like “trackman” or “flightscope” use the ball to reverse engineer what happened at impact with no interest in what mass was involved from the moving part of the collision (ball stationary). No input or algorithm for mass of the clubhead… I mean seriously?
I just have to roll my eyes again.
Maybe someday, the scientists will get up to speed and actually understand that mass in golf is important. Then do their homework and get back to us.
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In reality Jeff , and no disrespect. In one of your videos you say your back has been fused and you can’t even do what you think should be done. I think a hitters style of golf may be perfect for you . IMHO. You (and even your protege) are teaching a swing not a hit. Your applying all of these micro moves into peoples minds… when in reality your forgetting this is a motion. One motion, not a million micro moves. That is what your missing… and missing way right or way left.
Here is a simple formula that will cover your 1050 hours of videos.
Backswing ; turn , lift , set , higher back hip
Beginning of Down swing: squat , level hips, hands down to 430 line
To finish: 430 line in hip pocket, turn low hard and left, leads to stable clubface finish
Bingo . A one motion feel. Stable clubface. Exactly what we feel
Simple. Why the 1050 plus hours of videos ?
Than you actually mentioned that you were thinking of coming up with a dvd. That would be volumes 1-50.
Your missing the mark so badly