Okay change of tack here. Who agrees with me that a DQ for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J9Bh-ZVAz48 is just plain silly. Add a shot if necessary, after the card has been signed, and move on…
I agree Arnie, this is ridiculous. Is this some kind of publicity stunt or something?
Ok, a lot to cover here so sorry in advance for the multiple posts!
Firstly, lets look at Garrigus once more. Tee shot. Garrigus had to go back to the start of the lake, take a drop and play 3 or go back to the tee and face the same shot again. As cab be seen on the clip, his tee shot finishes about level with the red stick. Under the TRGA rules, he would drop in the middle of the fairway, 30 yards back from the red stick! How anyone can think he doesn’t have an advantage under the TRGA rules is beyond me. Hugo, you say his 3rd shot was awful, yes it was, but would it have been as bad from the middle of the fairway 40 or 50 yards further ahead? At that point an 8 iron probably puts him within kick on distance and he can get up and down in 3! for the win.
Anyone arguing that the TRGA rules are just as penal is fighting a losing battle here in my opinion.
I also have to pick you up Hugo on what you said about Jean VdV and Garrigus and likening the two situations. They were completely different except for the outcome! Despite guinning his driver all day, Garrigus hit rescue off the last tee, Van de Velde went aggressive with driver!
Seriously? Do you make that generalisation about the entire golfing world or just golfers you hame met through your own experiences?
I have to admit that this statement, along with Hugo’s on the Las Vegas TRGA thread really depresses me.
Lets look at what Padraig said in his press conference about the rules, bearing in mind he’s just been disqualified and has every reason to complain.
So Padriag has every right to bleat about the rules as some have been doing on this thread, but showing the type of class that makes him one of the most intelligent guys on tour as well as one of the best players he says:
I also have an issue with John complaining about the provisional ball rule and time taken.
Whilst I have no desire to spend all day on the course waiting for shots, equally I do not see the game as a race to complete in the shortest possible time.
The rules as they stand can basically be summed up as “Play the ball as it lies”. After that they deal with situations. Suggesting there are 900 pages of rules is childish.
As can be seen, where Garrigus had to drop his 3rd - in the rough, downhill lie, water right in front and about 250 yards to the green all over water - compared to in the middle of the fairway 200 yards from the green.
Depressed? Exagerating just a little? 
Styles, are you implying that we are lacking in class around here? 
On the issue of Garrigus, does it really matter if a change in rules would also mean a change of result in a tournament in some competitions? When they changed the rules in football so that to be off-side there had to be two defenders behind the player that received the ball, that meant that lots of matches will have turned out differently. It’s probably the same for many rule changes. We can argue all we like about the ruling, whether we like it or not, but whether a rule changes the outcome is entirely by the by, in my opinion; what really matters is that the rule treats everybody the same.
In some ways TRGA is more penal because you always play the ball down unless you are going to strike a metal sprinkler head and damage yourself or your club in the act of hitting the shot. You don’t get drops for ground under repair. That certainly makes it harder than players constantly asking for relief from this or that lie. Lateral hazards are harder typically because you go back three clubs.
The point of entry rule is a poorly thought out rule because it penalizes a player that might be hitting the ball from the other side of the ball (right or left handed) due to shot shape. Suppose one player cuts it over a dogleg flying the ball 250 but it lands a foot short of making it over a hazard. However the ball crossed the hazard 40 yards off the tee. Player B is left handed and hits a big hook and it also goes into the hazard two feet from player A’s ball, but his ball didn’t cut across the hazard near the tee because of the shot shape. Even though both players ball landed within feet of one another, one player takes a penalty at 250 and the other takes a drop at 40 yards off the tee. Think about this… what is it is debateable if the ball crossed the hazard just off the tee grazing the line or not? Who makes the call here?
Line of sight rule is silly also in many situations because that line is often just going farther back into trouble. If you hit a bad shot, why be penalized again because your relief options get worse and worse along the line of sight? Contrary, what if it gets better because you go into some other fairway through a line of trees up onto a hill with a clear shot? A left hander who hit the same shot into the other side of the fairway doesn’t have that option because both players sliced the ball into a hazard short of the green… one player gets a golden drop, the other might have no line of sight option and has to drop in a pile of long grass down in a gully and is still dead a a door knob.
Line of sight is a stupid rule. It’s complicated, unfair, slows play, and not a consistent penalty leaving way to many (nearly infinite) options.
During part of the 1960’s the PGA tour played OB as a one stroke penalty from the tee. This concept is nothing new (a lesser penalty for OB) The TRGA rule is more like a 1 and 1/2 shot penalty. You can still make a high number.
Remember, he would also be hitting persimmon off the tee all week… so his drives are not going as far. If everyone is playing by the same rules, then what is the difference? It’s funny how you want the OB rule to be more penal, but it’s ok to have a huge frying pan on the end of a 46 inch stick that hits the ball 40 yards farther which affects most every hole other than 3 pars. Pretty comical really. How often do drops really come into play? For leaders, once or twice a week, often never.
In Vegas, Bradley and I combined played 72 holes and there was one drop on the last hole, and only because I was two down and tried to fire one down the right side on a par 5 so I could potentially hit the green in two. I took a risk because I was teeing off first, and if I had pulled it off as planned (almost did) it would have certainly made things more interesting because if my drive is perfect and he knows I can reach, then he might be tempted to also hit driver. Since there were hazards down both sides and no bail out, if he hits a poor drive, even with a TRGA drop, he could theoretically be on the green in 4 and I could be on the green in 2. He two putts and I make and I could actually have picked up three shots on one hole and won the tournament… believe me, it was still very exciting.
not suggesting anyone lacks class here, just pointing out that Padraig is displaying his class by not crying about it 
You have just attempted a classic strawman argument.
As for exaggerating, I can assure you that I am not. It seriously depresses me that there are so many cheats out there. Luckily I have come across very few myself, thats why I asked Robbo the question about generalisation. For the last few years I have been working hard on my game trying to achieve a scratch handicap. I go about this honestly. It would appear that I have it all backward! I should just cheat and achieve scratch and have done with it! The problem with that scenario is that it goes against every grain of my being. As Padraig said, one of the things I love the most about this game is that we police ourselves. If you do not know the rules - LEARN THEM! There are only 35 of the bleeders and the book is certainly not 900 pages long 
Teddy you then said, " what really matters is that the rule treats everybody the same." I’m sorry if I’m missing your point but surely that is what we have at the moment!
Styles, can’t agree with you on a lot of this…but that’s ok that what the thread is for!
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I can certainly agree with you about Harrington reacting in entirely the right way to his DQ under the rules as they stand but that in no way invalidates the argument that its a silly rule to be DQ’d because of the infraction. Would you not agree that simply adding a stroke to his score after the card has been signed is not a more sensible and proportionate response to what happened than DQing him?
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On the Garrigus issue I would agree with you that its easier for him to get over the line under the TRGA rule rather than under the current rules, though far from guaranteed given the mental state he was in. I can live with that. Balanced against that example must be the impact of the rule on the pace of play in the 10’s of thousands of rounds played each day - tournament and non tournament. Of course the current rules aren’t the only or even the primary cause of slow play but they certainly do contribute. You “do not see the game as a race to complete in the shortest possible time”. Fair enough but that aside would you concede that the pace of play has declined dramatically over the last 30 years and that is an issue to be addressed? By in large the rules have remained constant so they cannot be held responsible in isolation but they act as a negative accelerant when operating with other factors such as longer courses, harder courses, a ball that goes further, 460 degree drivers etc etc all of which are interlinked.
That was no strawman argument, Styles - it was just the most obvious interpretation to me of your cleverly worded post that suggested that while we were bleating about the rules he showed class and did not. A strawman argument is where I try to disprove your argument by misrepresenting it, which I didn’t do. 
On to the real matter, though. Yes, we do have rules that treat everybody the same (almost - as Hadraig was only punished because it was on TV - other competitors may get away with it if not televised). What we are advocating is rules that are also simpler to implement, save time, and display more common sense.
You say there are only 35 rules. Well, in that case I suppose there are less than 35 pages then, or less? But no, the document I have (PDF) has 208 pages (sorry Lag, you were way off!). 208 pages of rules! For goodness sake! And you say “LEARN THEM”!
I get the impression that those that defend the rules are content with themselves because they have spent so long studying them and can just about quote every passage (a bit like TGM quoters…). No surprise then that they would resist simplifying those rules after all that bloody effort!
If this were true, there would be no need for rules officials. Golf should be easily self governed and policed, but I have seen Padraig calling over rules officials before because he knows he cannot police himself, even as a professional. The rules are way to complex even for pros. Amateurs don’t play by USGA or R and A rules on the weekends either because they are totally impractical. If every Saturday morning foursome was walking back to the tee hitting provisional’s calling the head pro out to make on course rulings and so forth… people would be carrying shot guns in their bags more often than laser scopes. 
With regards ground under repair, I was under the impression that rule was for the greenkeeper. In other words, the greenkeeper didn’t want you to play from that spot to protect the turf. GUR has to be clearly marked at the beginning of play and a player has the option to play from it in any case.
Its a good question but one I don’t see occuring very often.
Line of sight is one of three options available to a player when taking a penalty drop. Stroke and distance and two club lengths are also available. A player with decent knowledge of the rules will take his penalty after considering what his best option will be - for player A that might be two club lengths, player B might take line of sight.
This last argument makes no sense to me. We are talking about the rules of TRGA which are being put forth as a better alternative to the existing R&A/USGA rules. Talking about persimmon in this case makes no sense at all to me. If he had hit a hickory shafted driver the same place he hit his rescue, the result would have been the same. Under R&A rules he drops where the ball crossed the hazard, under TRGA rules he is in the middle of the fairway 50 or more yards ahead 
You then say I want OB to be more penal, however, the example is a lateral water hazard
Throwing in comments about ‘frying pans’ seems to me the usual knee jerk reaction you have and merely obfuscates what the discussion is actually about. Now that is comical!
I don’t have any problem with the LAS Vegas TRGA event and their rules, I just don’t think they have any merit for the game I play every week.
I also don’t doubt that the final round was exciting for you two guys, don’t take my criticism of the TRGA rules (again which are fine for their events) personally.
No probs Graham, at the end of the day, healthy debate is essential to stimulate the mind!
Re point one, you will see on Geoff Shackleford that I strongly feel that trial by TV should be removed and if it happens a player should get a two shot penalty but still be in the tournament. Originally I posted here that “Padraig had every right to complain” - I thought that was enough to show how I felt about this happening.
Re point two, you’re probably right that golf has slowed down, however at my own course the time taken has stayed pretty constant.
I would also point to the fact that most golf clubs have an inverted pyramid age profile with many more golfers in their 50s-70s compared to under 50. The simple truth is that these guys don’t hit the ball far and can’t walk fast, both of which contribute to slow play.
Styles,
My point is he is not hitting 8 iron in… but more likely 4 iron… there is a difference. You seem to be ignoring the equipment issues of modern gear. There are no TRGA rules playing with frying pans, rescue clubs, long putters or hybrids.
Do you really think players should be walking back to the tee to reload ever?
Should all weekend golfers at all times be adhering to these rules and if not… why?
Should people play by the rules or not? According to some… golfers should follow the rules strictly. But there is NO WAY IN HELL the average golfer is going to be playing by USGA rules regarding going back to the tee for lost balls or OB… and multiple searches for multiple provisional’s.
Why should there be an unwritten casual rule and a tournament rule? Why not just have the rules simple and everyone play by them like other games tournament or not?
Styles,
I am not sure why you are so hung up on the Garrigus rule and trying to say he would have won by dropping on the fairway under TRGA rules.
When he took his drop he was (and I know this by playing that course and that event) 35 yards back from where his ball ended up…so he still would have had approximately the same yardage for his next shot to the green (approx 210 yards from where he was) based on TRGA rules as to what actually happened.
If he hadn’t of hit such a big snipe hook from the tee and just put a gentle draw around the corner that somehow just managed to roll into the hazard farther up…he would have dropped it right on the fairway with line of sight and have a 9 iron in under current rules…In TRGA he would have then had to go 30 yards farther back and had a 6 iron where his odds were lessened.
The big issue is…he still had no business hitting the 3rd shot how he did…and the way his mindset was he could HAVE definitely still hit the same poor shot from the fairway and pull yanked that into the water again and made 7 or 8 and still lost
Taking his TRGA drop the hole is a big dog leg and he still would have been blocked with his 3rd shot even from the fairway…In reality he had absolutely no right hitting that 3rd shot over a tree anyhow and should have hit an 8 iron (like you suggest) out to the right, pitched on and 2 putted. He was a basket case of nerves and played accordingly.
Did you watch the playoff?..he had no confidence whatsoever and couldn’t hit his hybrid again from the tee, so he didn’t deserve to win… So why on earth would someone of his length hit driver off the tee in the playoff way through the fairway behind the trees on the right and have to chip out and effectively lose right there?..It was just bad golf all around especially with a 3 stroke lead and on a hole where trouble jumps out at you right from the tee shot
A lot of valid points on both sides…hard to decide. I think in general however, rules need to made easier not in a sense of making the game easier, but to assure all players are on the same page to the best extent possible before that first shot is struck.
Or…play by Rat Rules: hit the fairway… except on hot, humid days aim for the shade- wherever it is- and play from there
Lag/2
Why doesn’t the following rule work or isn’t enforced?
From the Etiquette Section
Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found.They should not search for five minutes before doing so
FWIW…If I hit 14 provisionals during the day, it takes me 140 seconds extra…To me the problem is not waiving the group behind you through
light relief rat man, I like it 