thats just complicating things, not making them better.
To back up Steb’s argument, pretty sure I read somewhere that Dave Pelz did a study of whether it was better to leave a pin in or out when you had the choice (ie under USGA, R&A rules) and the clear winner was to putt with the pin in.
I know this will go on and on and on…but it really is simple, basic, easy and the same for everyone
In Japan when i got my tour card we had to do a week long school learning whatever they said we had to learn to play the tour up there…entries, travel, etiquette, etc etc… all in Japanese mind you which meant a good nap for all the foreign guys there such as Stewart Ginn, Peter McWhinney, Wayne Smith and myself.
We all had name tags on calling us ‘trainees’ !!! 
Imagine that Stewart Ginn who had won Australian PGA Championships and events in Asia and Europe at that point being called a trainee…I thought that was amusing…anyhow
We had to do a rules test…You had to get 16 out of 20 questions correct and you could USE THE RULE BOOK to find the answers… 
Out of a dozen or so people only 4 of us actually passed the rules test with the highest score being 17 out of 20…and that was USING the rule book for reference.
Does that mean the rules of golf are overstated and too difficult to understand when you can actually use the book and cheat more or less and still not get it right. And we aren’t talking start up amateurs here…we are talking about seasoned pros who played by the rules day in and day out for years and years. And one/fifth of them still couldn’t pass the test
Anyhow…I think everyone should go out and play by these rules one day…you probably all do it anyhow when you go out for a quick 9 holes or 18 holes on your own, yet don’t look at it that way. I am sure you go play on your own hit a drive can’t find it and drop one there and play on. I am certain nobody would walk back to the last point and go again from there…
A quick answer for some of Steb’s questions:
As for putting with the pin in- I saw one of my playing partners hit a perfect putt from 25 feet or so…it was rolling slowly and WOULD have gone in however he chose to leave the flag in and it bounced off…with the pin out the ball would have been out of daylight at the bottom of the cup. So that hindered him rather than helped him there
Any ball that rolls forward or more than 2 club lengths is an illegal drop and should be re dropped
There really weren’t any spike marks around… the greens were great in that regard albeit a little on the bumpy side because of being overseedd and having a mix of grasses on them. The new greens they make today are much less resistant to spike marks and the strands get torn up more…I think that is the course’s problem by making greens from grass that just aren’t tolerant. Mind you even in soft spikes guys can rip up greens by doing a Fred Astaire when they react to a missed putt or pull the ball from the hole. I think i tapped down 1 spike mark in 36 holes, so that wasn’t a drama
Any ball was deemed playable except if it lay out of bounds…you could have taken a penalty drop from a divot in the middle of the fairway if you wanted to, but it would have cost you stroke and distance…whether it was playable or not was the sole discretion of the player even if it was in a hazard or up a tree
As long as your ball is in the confines of the course you can it even if your stance is outside the boundary- just like standing outside the markers on the tee box
General vicinity for casual water relief would be from where the ball was or the casual water ceased to exist…fairway is any closely mown area and includes fringe
The scorecard rule has always bothered me anyhow…what other sports does a player actually keep his or an opponents score in? None that I can think of… Why should I be penalized for a mistake my opponent made on my card (possibly on purpose??) that I may have missed in the heat of the moment of adding, subtracting or checking…
And for people to be able to call in on television and get people disqualified…they have got to be joking…imagine calling into the Super Bowl and telling them that there was a hold by number 24 on the defense at the 6 minute mark of the 2nd quarter, so they have to now hand the Lombardi trophy over to the Patriots instead of the Panthers…stupid stupid rule especially after the fact and the card has been confirmed in the scorers hut.
Styles:
Garrigus would have been in the same position in Memphis but probably farther back away from the hole. He went in the water and took a drop and the he just hit an absolute crap 3rd shot where he turned the sod over and pull hooked and deserved to lose eventually after such a poor shot.
Van De Velde may have won the Open with that rule…but would he?.. again he hit his 3rd in the hazard would have to drop for 4 and play his 5th to the green… He still would have had to hole a 5-10-15-20-30 footer? for double bogey to win after hitting his approach (hopefully) onto the green…
I think everyone should go play and see how little difference it really makes…some drops can gain a slight advantage…most you get penalized even greater
It was so simple it was fun to play…and I took zero drops in two days…Lag took 1 drop over 2 days (on the very last hole) and the other guys I played with may have taken 1 or 2 drops each and made double each time anyhow…just like you should score for getting yourself out of position thru a poor stroke
If this was correct why do many guys take the flag OUT when they are chipping?
I think Pelz also has suggested that to many players… through his studies… so he very much contradicts himself with those thoughts
There’s no doubt that the TRGA rules as they stand could and would be taken advantage of if played all around the world. As they are now, they are for fewer golfers who are quite able and willing to play in the spirit that those rules were intended.
The current rules are intended to be interpreted for being played in the spirit they were intended to, and always when in doubt one should play the ball as it lies, unless one is sure there is a ruling. The problem with today’s rules is that there are simply too many of them, and too many options. If I go in a water hazard, for example, why present 3 options? (play from same spot again, take two club lengths, or take a direct line backwards etc).
These rules would change things, but it’s the same for everybody. The example that you’re winning and only need a 6 on a par 4 to win. I say, “so what”? Is there less risk now for me facing that situation? Maybe, or maybe not, but so what? I earned the position of being 2 or 3 up going into the last hole through the tournament using the same rules as everybody else, and now playing the last hole I face the same rules again. Maybe out of bounds is not such a big risk (although when was the last time you saw a golf pro go out of bounds in that situation?), but there are other risks such as duffed chips, bad bunker shots, shanks, and so on.
If somebody makes a mistake on their scorecard once, it’s an unintentional accident. If it happens 4, 5, 6 times, perhaps there’s something else going on? Common sense would prevail, would it not?
Why can I fix pitch marks but not spike marks?
If leaving the pin in means I make more putts, so be it - it’s the same for everyone.
The rules need to be the same for everyone, but they need to be understandable to everyone. I’m sure the TRGA rules would need tightening up somewhat, but I’m sure we could do much better than the current set of rules that we have which are appalling.
Seems like this is the very point I’m making.
If i recall correctly, where Garrigus hit his third shot from was where he dropped it. Under the TRGA rules, his fairway drop would’ve been taken in relation to where his ball ended up not where it crossed the hazard line. That would’ve put him way further up AND on the fairway. In my mind, there’s no doubt he would’ve won under the TRGA rules. The reason he got screwed was because his tee shot was so bad it crossed the hazard very early in it’s flight. There just has to be a consequence for that kind of shot, and if there isn’t, it ruins the challenge.
Some might say it’s the same for everyone, but the problem with the rule is that it basically puts a ceiling on the high number you can make. That may speed up play, but it significantly subtracts from the thrill of playing and watching the game. Ironically, it seems so counter to everything ABS is about, which is controlling the ball and having a golf course that punishes bad shots. I can see the value of the rule for standard weekend golf, but not for top level play. Looking way down the line of trying to get the Persimmon tour off the ground, having that rule in place for a TV audience alone would be boring, particularly coming down the stretch.
Bom if the penalty was 2 shots rather than 1 would that change how you felt?
Cheers, Arnie
Arnie,
I don’t think so because it’s still a ceiling as far as I can see. I just don’t like the idea of dropping a ball on a fairway after you’ve hit it way offline, o.b., or into a hazard, because it’s too far removed from what you’ve done, or where you’re ball actually is. I would feel very disconnected from what I’ve done if I were to drop under those rules- looking way down the line with that rule, it could really alter the game, and how you attack/approach a course. I think as much as possible, you have to follow your ball around the course and hit it from the place you’ve hit it to, because that defines your game, and that’s what golf is about. Granted, the hazard line rule is messy because you can really get screwed undeservedly so, if there’s a long hazard and you cross it early and your shot wasn’t that bad. That’s happened to me more than once and it really stings. But hitting it sideways or o.b. is not good and should have decent consequences.
I wonder what the specific point of the rule is, is it purely for speed of play? A better rule might be if you hit it in the crap/hazard/possibly o.b. you have the choice while you’re still on the tee, to hit another tee shot, which would be your second shot, but that forfeits your right to look for your first ball. And if you hit the second one in the crap, you can then do the same/have the same choice and be hitting your third shot etc., etc. That seems fairer overall and would address the speed of play issue. It seems like a more ‘golfing’ way to be hitting your 3rd shot from the fairway because you have the chance to actually hit it there, or wherever you hit it- but you’ve hit, which is the point. Then I suppose the question would be, what happens if you decide not to hit another tee shot and you go look for your ball and don’t find it? Man, rule making is hard. There are many options I think, but to bring it back to the discussion at hand, in my view, dropping it on the fairway after you’ve hit it sideways isn’t a great rule whichever way you slice it(pun unintended, but noted and appreciated even if I do say so myself.)
I am still not convinced on the Garrigus deal… he hit 2 of the WORST shots in a row EVER by a pro… The tee shot I can forgive as it is not a real easy driving hole but there is a bail out right…that 3rd shot was not that difficult … he had an iron in his hand and tonnes of room right to hit at and he pull yanked it 50 yards into a tree that wasn’t anywhere near being in play…trust me I have played that hole many times and it was awful how he conjured up the mess that he did.
All that being said…couldn’t he have just hit an iron up the right from the tee…and iron up short right of the green…chipped up and 2 or 3 putted and still won?
Which is exactly what is being suggested can be done to win going by the TRGA rules.?
there are many ways to look at it… If you are three shots in front with one hole to go…you have earned it by good play up to that point… do what is necessary to win and get the heck out… they don’t give out badges of courage for hitting driver and stiffing an iron to win from that position… the following week no-one would remember he hit iron - iron - chipped on and 2 or 3 putted to win…but they certainly remember him for making a mess of things and eventually losing out in the playoff
People do take drops back on fairways with line of sight from unplayable lies (sometimes out on other fairways) and drop into the fairway from water hazards by going back in line where it last crossed to gain a better lie and an advantage
i just really like how simple the rules are- hit it or drop it- obviously it is difficult to wrap the mind around what goes against what ‘we know’ or are ‘used to’ but I thought it was fantastic and not hard to comprehend or govern or use in the field of play… as I stated before… IF all the pros who did that rules test in Japan didn’t know the correct rules actually using a rule book for guidance…what hope does Joe Average have at playing by the proper rules as suggested by the rule book?
It’s not the same for everyone because some will play to the spirit of the rules and others only to what is written. Put big money on the line and there will be few left who stick to the spirit and the game
Yes we know this from the existing rule book but both the TRGA basic and full rules don’t mention it. Consulting TRGA plus the existing rules book is even more confusing. Start adding in things like illegal drops (including subsequent illegal drops, placing (where? impossible to see where ball landed when dropped over shoulder), if drop rolls unplayably into hazard (back 30 yards?), what if ball keeps rolling when placed, I could go on and on, and suddenly the rules are getting pretty big again.
Same with casual water. We know what it is, does the beginner? Mud? Water in drainage ditch across the fairway, water visible when jumping up and down. All these explanations you had to do to me was because the TRGA rules didn’t cover it or stated it ambiguously (e.g. standing OOB to play ball in bounds).
No-one is expected to know all the rules and the great % of the rule books cover situations that most people rarely encounter. When Joe Average does, nobody knows any the better and breaches are not even noticed and the game continues. When the pro does, he calls for a rules official. Rules officials spend 90% of their time attending pros who aren’t confident enough with simple drops (e.g. drop from spinkler head) to take the responsibility of doing it incorrectly. It doesn’t matter how simple the rules become, breaches will always cost big money so ROs are not going anywhere.
I think if you look back at the number of times you’ve been DQ’d or penalized what you consider to be unfairly, you will find it is such an insignificant number compared to the amount of golf you’ve played. But those same rules stopped others reducing your pay checks your whole career.
Yep…that’s exactly what I like about the TRGA rules… there was basically one rule… hit the ball as it lies or drop it 30 yards back and out… there is no room for mis-communication of a rule or unfair advantage or non knowledge of what the rule is or states…
i know these rules will never take off in the world of golf but for pure simplification it doesn’t get any easier… there is only black and white and nothing in between…that is the beauty of it 
I agree they were terrible shots, I can remember the swing he put on it off the tee- it wasn’t pretty. And the only word to describe the 3rd shot was depressing- painful to watch. But under the TRGA rules he never would’ve had that 3rd shot to hit because he’d have been in the middle of the fairway, probably 80-100 yards further up. From there he has 4 to get down- I don’t see how that doesn’t basically guarantee the win for him. I don’t think that’s right because he didn’t win the tournament, and you could argue, rightly so. As a golfer, he’s grown from that fiasco, and has won since and will probably be a better golfer because of the whole thing.
The question about the iron off the tee is the age old dilemma and that’s why golf is so great, and such a personal challenge. I don’t see how that really relates because even as it stands, people don’t do that when you know they should. But that’s what’s so fascinating about the game and the people in it- it’s always about battling the ‘demons’ the closer it gets to the end. And again, that’s a massive part of why the game is great. Putting a ceiling on the damage the demons can do, subtracts from the overall test. For the average weekend golf, I’d say sure, it’s a great rule for all sorts of reasons. But at the top end of the game, I don’t like it at all.
Can you not see how this would be the case, or am I off base?
I’m thinking about giving these rules a try this weekend…I’m still not sure where I should drop the ball on a forced carry tee shot that doesn’t make it in a case that there’s no fairway to drop it just the tee box?
tks
I can sort of see Bom’s argument about OB being a bit lax in TRGA terms when it comes to the penalty but at the same time the OB penalty in general has always seemed a bit harsh to me. Why is a water hazard to my right a different situation than a white stake to my left? I’m not supposed to be able to advance either shot yet I have to reload if I miss left.
To me the bottom line to this thread in general is that the rules of golf have morphed into an absolute monstrosity of a document… to the point that most big events require an official(s) with every time and most professionals are absolutely terrified of making a decision on their own (a travesty/absurdity as far as I’m concerned). It’s as if there’s a USGA/R+A body and it’s employees that have to justify their existance. Logic and common-sense are replaced with a Rules Book and another book of “Decisions on those Rules” book.
The TRGA rules are an attempt to boil those down to the basics. They aren’t perfect, but my guess is you could play 90% of all tournaments at any level and not see any difference in the finish of that event.
To Styles point that players don’t play by the rules… are you kidding me? Do you really believe that the group of golfers who tee’d off an hour in front of your comp are taking the correct drop in every situation? You are dreaming my friend!
robbo
I get what you are saying Bom …it was such a bad shot on both of them…if he made that same swing on his 3rd shot even from out near the middle of the fairway he would have pull hooked it into the hazard farther along instead of clipping the trees and made at least 7 or 8 anyhways… either way there is a lot to be remembered for future reference…(i.e) IF you are THREE STROKES UP with one hole to play…try a different tact than Garrigus and Van De Velde
One thing in the TRGA is that if there is an oddity or question that the group cannot figure out or is not written in the book…
the player or group simply do the best they can, and the tournament rules official simply makes the final call after the round, and decides if the player was taking advantage of the situation, or clearly had bad intentions. A one stroke penalty would be assessed … or not.
Just like any other sport… a designated rules official makes the call, and that decision is final and not contested. Just like an up calling balls and strikes.
An OB situation still offers a chance for a 3 shot swing on the last hole or worse. If we take player A and B… A has a two shot lead going into the last hole and hooks his drive OB. Drops back 30 yards and now instead of hitting a 6 iron in… he hits a 3 iron and misses the green left into a hazard. He drops back again now hitting 5 from 30 yards short of the green. He pitches on and now gags and three putts… and makes an 8. Even if he just hits his third into a green side bunker, he might not get up and down and makes double.
All the while player B hits driver 6 iron 15 feet and drains the putt for birdie, and wins the event by picking up 3, 4 or 5 shots… so I don’t see that a player can’t still find a way to lose on the last hole.
I disagree that this limits the drama on 18. A double is very likely with an OB and then 30 back… and the other player making birdie is a three shot swing on one hole. A player could pick up six shots on the last two hole with this scenario. A player can still make a quad if they find a hazard twice on the same hole.
If everyone is playing by the same rules, then it’s fair enough.
I also disagree with the Van De Velde situation. He was actually trying to take advantage of lax R and A rules by blowing his second shot into the stands right which would have given him a FREE drop from the stands into a drop area on the green side of the creek. He had OB left if I remember, and the bail into the stands right was the safe shot. He got a bad break when his ball hit the stands and kicked back into the hazard… so then he had to drop behind the creek. With TRGA his play to bail right would have been a penalty either way. He hits 4 from the fairway… may or may not hit the green… if he does he still might choke and three putt for a 7. If you are going to choke… you are still likely to find a way to blow it.
If the USGA is so adamant about making golf’s rules so abrasive and difficult and overly penal… such as all the silly two stroke penalties for bizarre infractions and such… then why allow all the cheat clubs and rocket golf balls?
How can it make sense for a good overall pace of play for all competitors, that gives a player the right to call over a rules official anytime there is a question? This is why tournament golf takes 5 plus hours. I have seen this over and over again.
The provisional ball rule is an absolute nightmare. If a player hits one right into the junk… then left into other junk, he is then given 5 minutes to search for each ball… AND then if he can’t find either… he HAS TO WALK back to the tee and reload another… and hope he hits the fairway. This can take 15 to 20 minutes, and if players are going off the first tee every 8 minutes… well… you do the math.
I played in the Alberta Open at Wolf Creek, and each round on the very tight 4th hole… even with fore caddies… there would be a three group wait on the tee everyday because of the silly provisional ball rule.
I am probably one of the biggest supporters of golf courses being tighter and more demanding off the tee, but I am a much bigger supporter of a quick place of play.
Also…
As far as players taking advantage of TRGA rules… such as a ball dropped that then rolls 20 yards down a slope ahead of them and they play that ball against the consensus of their group… as clearly this would show bad intentions… it would be likely they would be assessed a penalty shot once that situation was presented to the ruling official after the round. Golf is a gentleman’s game, and those acting in a poor spirit will be penalized and not welcomed back.
I caught a few minutes of the Golf Channel on Tuesday evening. They were doing a quick piece on the USGA holding a rules meeting in Florida (probably in conjunction with the PGA show). There was a room full of people, most with blank-looking expressions on their faces, while a presenter was doing a PowerPoint presentation. In the film clip you could see one of the slides in the background was titled “Why The Rules Are So Difficult To Understand” or something to that effect. I just chuckled to myself as I imagined how the presenter defended that slide. Where was the slide about “Here’s What We’re Doing To Make The Rules Simple To Understand”!
My guess is the USGA is more concerned with justifying their existance rather than trying to develop a “new existance”. They know they missed the boat on equipment changes so now they choose to “protect the game” by ruling the crap out of it with inane drop requirements and/or obscure "technicality"rulings (most of which are called in by non-golfers/golf-wannabees who probably graduated from one their rules training sessions).
It really is ridiculous when you think about it.
robbo
If you play the ball as it lies, then you basically eliminate 900 pages of the book.
In the TRGA event… both days I drove over the dogleg 5th into the dead center of the fairway. Both days I was in obvious ground under repair, and I can assure you that if I was playing in a USGA event, I would have called over an official and asked for relief which would have held up the the golf course for 10 minutes.
Instead, I invented a shot to play and stuck it 3 feet from the hole and made birdie on Sat. On Sunday, I just caught it a razor bit heavy and left it short in the bunker. So I played the hole even par for two days, and I learned how to hit a new shot, and gained playability knowledge and feel like a better player by taking on the challenge.