The Real Moe Norman

Finally !!!
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What do we know about the authors here?
I never once heard Moe talk about either of them… and I spent a lot of time with Moe also.
I would assume Moe’s #1 Student would be one incredible ball striker.
Would love to see it.

I tend to question claims that “the secret” was only told to this one person, and only this person knows, and a book comes
out about it years after he has passed.

However, I am certainly open to a discussion about it here… and I would encourage it. Let’s all learn Moe’s secret so we can hit it like Moe did.

Heres a link to “Moe Norman’s best student-Greg Lavern” (quote from the youtube link)

The ballstrike sound seems to be added to the clip (happens after the actual impact in the clip)…

He does howver have a really nice clip of young Moe on the same channel… Chalk and Cheese?

Thanks for the link.

I’ve seen a lot of people try to emulate Moe, and this is one of the better ones I have seen. Moe’s post impact pivot pull is what sets him apart from others, and a lot of this in my opinion is that Moe was left handed, and his swing was deliberately developed from the use of VERY heavy gear. I don’t think anyone is getting to Moe without swinging at least a 15 ounce driver.
The extra weight DOES effect the inner cohesive body tension and thrust needed to keep the pivot moving post impact, which is what Moe did better than about anyone I ever saw. Moe did not like the modern gear for this reason, and he talked to me personally about this… I’ve got Moe even discussing this on the video I took of him at Red Deer CC in 1988.

From the youtube video, it appears Greg has done a respectable job of putting together Moe’s concepts into a golf swing.
Would love to get him over here for some conversation about it.

Looks too armsy and diconnected to me. Arms swing across torso. He has seemed to replicate the motion pretty decent, in all its goofiness. To tell the truth, I’d rather not play golf than look like this on the course. Even if it was a magic fix to hitting 18/18 GIR.

In one of his video’s of Moe talking about “left side control”, Moe says he PULLS with his left arm only and right arm just goes along for ride. I only been playing golf 6 months now and I remember this advice was just about the first thing I kept hearing from playing partners on the course and reading on the net on how to properly swing club. All it did was frustrate me though.

No doubt that Moe’s swing was a big left side pull all the way through… and I don’t think it hurt that he was left handed also.

Heavy gear, again… helped it develop properly so that the body could feel more pressure and resistance, putting more mass behind the ball and feel in the hands.

I just don’t see Moe’s action working all that well with a modern light weight frying pan. Moe hated that stuff…
He might have liked it later in life when he was getting older and weakening from age and a horrible diet… but from
the guys I know that saw Moe in the 2000’s, they all said it was a shadow of what we were seeing back in the late 80’s
and I am sure what we were seeing in the late 80’s was a shadow of what was going on back in the 60’s and 70’s.

Whether you are trying to master Hogan’s move, Moe’s, Snead or any of the great strikers of the past, I just don’t see how you can get there without setting your gear up correctly to suite.

Both Moe’s and Hogan’s gear were very heavy, different lie angles, but heavy stiff stuff. Trying to mimic positions of the body
taking the physics of heavy gear out of the equation is not going to work properly in my opinion.

Heavy gear creates by it’s intrinsic nature more cohesive body tension and connection throughout the body.

Feel the difference between lifting a volley ball and a bowling ball. Your body will react differently and you will feel the bowling ball right down through your feet.

One might argue how just a few ounces could make such huge difference, but you have to understand that there is a magnifying effect when things are put into motion, with CF and things spinning around in motion. I’m sure there is a nice tidy formula for this in physics.

you know, sometimes I do wonder if Moe was onto something with the hands higher at address look. Unless one sets themselves like this at address, just about everyone otherwise has their hands come through impact zone higher than at address. If that is the result of having hands low at address (hands coming through higher on different ‘plane’) than why NOT have hands higher at address?

Even low elbow planners are still coming into impact with shaft pointing to belly button or so- which of course is higher than arms hanging at address.

After seeing this video last night, the goofy swing look popped into my mind late at practice range today. So with a few balls left I raised my hands fairly high. Lo behold I honestly felt like I was making, what I would say, more consistent contact. (I also swear some players were laughing at me a few stalls over…). I just brushed results off though as just an anecdotal effect but did think more about it on way home.

I then thought that Hogan had higher hands so jumped on youtube to check, he did. His beach video arms are way out (driver though). I also looked at Lag’s swingvision vid. Hands start in the arms hanging low position but come through impact higher.

Why NOT start on impact plane?

I completely agree…

If you are going to swing, then you would be smart to do what Moe does. A swinger’s release relies upon passive hands, free flexible wrists not only through transition, but impact also… Moe did it right.

Hitters would not want to do this because they are essentially pulling or resisting against CF. So low hands would increase the range of motion for active forearm rotation.

Hitters also have the advantage of flat lie geometry, which is why I prefer to teach it vs swinging. I also think it’s easier to do something, rather than nothing.

So what do we get?

Hogan = hitter

Moe = swinger

Yet he does hands high at address as well. Not nearly as dramatic is Moe’s but definitely higher and more forward than a natural, relaxed arm hang.

I wont get stuck on hands position at impact; Pro golfers who have played the game for a long long time move their torso in the backswing no matter where their hands are at address. Not only that but they have different paths going about their backswing. For begginers like us I think low hands with the upper arms tight by the side of chest is helpful cos it moves the torso to some extent. The bigger the torso turn you make, the more of it can be retained when you arrive at P3. And that is what really matters.


I don’t think of Hogan’s hands as coming in higher… if anything slightly lower due to vertical ground pressures properly integrated.

Also, depends a bit on the kind of shot being played… people forget that when looking at stills.

Has anyone actually read this book yet?
I would love to see the pictures but of course anybody could have taken these, so they don’t prove anything.

I find it suspicious that none of the authors are mentioned in Moe’s life story “The Feeling of Greatness" and you never once here Moe mention Greg he did however mention a student called “Ken Tucker”. Moe spent a year or so teaching his swing to Ken I believe this was in the 50’s or 60’s.

Could he be telling the truth of course. But is it more likely they have seen an opportunity to pedal a book and earn a quick buck as there is an imminent film being made about Moe called “dancing the green”?

I said higher at address. So they come in the same area he sets them in at address like what Moe does. High meaning not the widely taught loose arms ‘natural’ hang with low hands down by thighs but more closer to impact area. He comes into impact very close to where he had them at address (if not slightly lower as you alluded too). Again not nearly as dramatic as Moe but he has them out there a bit.

If you’re going to use a high hand set up, be very careful about getting extremely laid off during the backswing. High hands can lead to a tendency to overroll the left arm flying wedge on the back swing.

Not that it can’t be done, just be careful.

…or do 10,000 module #1 drills.
Laying it off is nothing more than good forearm rotation, and as long as you have the ability to crank it back square to the ball, it becomes a great source of both power and accuracy.

However, if you love the dead hand stuff, then this would not be as good a move for you…unless you do it like Moe did, then it can work much better.

Trust me. Those of us in the finishing modules are working on just that, as how laid up can we get.

Hello Gentlemen:

I happen to be the writer of The Real Moe Norman. My co-authors are Greg Lavern and Lawson Mitchell. Lawson met Moe early in his life and was a mentor and friend until his death. Moe checked in with Lawson every winter in Florida. Lawson had moved there from Canada in 1960. Bill Mitchell, Lawson’s dad, was an assistant pro at the golf course in Canada that Moe first learned the game from Mr. Tucker the pro. This is how Moe knew Lawson and why he trusted him. Moe was a very shy and untrusting man. He only hung with folks he knew. You had to be introduced by someone who was already “on the inside”. Lawson introduced Greg to Moe as a very young man because he knew Moe would like him and that Greg would hang on his every word. Moe taught the golf swing that he and Lawson worked on to Greg from 1974 to 1989. Greg and Moe travelled together, hung out and hit balls together all the time - 800 at a time. Lawson has said that many people practiced and played with Moe, but no one hit balls and practiced with Moe on such a consistent basis as Greg. In the three years it took to write this book I conducted many interviews with friends of Moe. They all knew Lawson and did not hesitate to confirm the relationship between Moe, Lawson and Bill Mitchell. They knew Greg. As one close friend put it, Moe needed a friend to play golf with and more importantly hang out with when the sun went down. He needed the company of a friend he could trust. Greg became that friend. While being an untold story it is verified and true as the many quotes in the book and my research and interviews verify. Combined with the personal pictures and swing pictures included in the book any doubt is removed. The picture Lawson and Greg paint of Moe as a person is different than the picture many others portray. As for Moe’s golf swing I am convinced that their knowledge is unique. Why? First because many of the other organizations that say they “teach” Moe’s swing now, say that Moe didn’t really know what he did. Greg will tell you that he did know exactly what he did and taught him. Second our understanding of Moe’s swing is completely different than what anyone else says it is - and Lawson has the film from 1963 to prove it. In our book, using this film and Greg’s swing to illustrate, you see a much different swing than the swing you see in all the videos currently available on line. We show a much younger Moe; the Moe that won all his tournaments and set all his course records. So not only do you see a different swing from Moe you also get to understand a different man as well. The Real Moe Norman. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I like the site.

great opening post!

Welcome aboard, a lot of Moe fan(atics) here, I’m sure you’ll get a load of questions.

Mine is; is the book available in the UK?

The book is available world wide through our website -
We should be on in about 4 to 6 weeks but the best deal as far as price goes is through our website.
It eliminates the middleman! You can also read some reviews and see a small excerpt of the book.