Nah…I see a lower life form to subjugate. Lawn ornament to augment the aesthetics of my home, 1,000,000 toothpicks, 186,522 golf tees, 238 gal. of maple syrup over 20 years. Oh, it fights in it’s feeble “lower life form” way; dropping leaves to vex me, attracting squirrels to nest in my attic, creating shade to keep the grass from growing lush, and releasing branches to dull my mower blades. Classic man vs. nature stuff to be sure!
Now if you replace the tree with co-eds…sunning themselves, rubbing lotion on hard to reach places, having pillow fights while daring to display the beauty and variety of the female form on my front lawn. Perhaps throw in a trampoline…and a pool filled with cherry Jello. Then…then…I’ll listen.
The golden rectangle, or a near approximation of it, can be revealed in a maximum efficiency golf swing as modeled by computer in the report by Ryan McGinnis. That computer generated image resembled the golden spiral of a nautilus shell. That and my having visited goldengolf.com long ago where the golden spiral related to golf was first brought to my attention sparked several questions found in the original topic post here of which “goldengolf” uniquely addresses several.
I look forward to further posts from everyone on the 7 questions in the original topic post and related questions that may develop.
I don’t know. A guess might be we could begin to sort it out by asking if the spiral is not visible because the label “spiral” does not apply or what it is that another observor sees if not a spiral. If the observor does not see at least the approximation of the golden spiral or golden rectangle, it may be that the questions in the original post are immaterial to that observor.
These were the questions I asked to invite exploration of the topic:
Does the word “harmonious” apply to the coincidence of (a) both the path of the hands fitting the Golden Rectangle and (b) the shaft movement ratio of 1:2 fitting inside the Fibonacci sequence?
Does the approximation of the Golden Rectangle appear in other vantage points in the three dimensions of the swing or is this occurrence unique?
Even if this is the only place, why is it here at all?
How can we visualize this spiral path of the hands and club shaft existing in three dimensions that appears here in one plane?
Can someone create a three dimensional physical model or a computer simulation allowing us to change our point of view of the model infinitely?
Would the differences in the hitting and swinging protocols impact the generation of this model?
Are the Golden Spiral, Golden Rectangle, Golden Ratio, Phi, and the Fibonacci sequence, any of these, possibly useful in helping us conceive and develop our hitting or swinging technique?
I want to add the following to my preceding reply.
There are viewing perspectives where the spiral is less apparent. For example, if we move our perspective away from the “caddie view” in the graph and move to a “down the line” view, the spiral becomes less apparent and the questions I would like to learn more about would not fit well. If we stretch the example and move our viewpoint toward the backside of the golfer from a position on the ground so we are looking up at an angle similar to the lie angle of the club through the vicinity of the golfer’s lumbar curve , we could again see what I am calling a spiral especially if we photographed it stroboscopically or graphed it from instrument data, and the questions would fit again.
For whatever it may be worth:
I experiment with imagining myself swinging inside the graphed spiral and think about how my swing compares to it in a three dimensional way. As a form of training and feedback it has limitations, yet I believe it is useful to me. I doubt I can explain how I use the imagery; I don’t have words for the mental gymnastics. I don’t believe the imagery replaces the modules training I have completed so far; instead I believe the imagery helps me absorb the modules in an additional way.
Another question:
Are there recorded images of golf swings that are stroboscopically photographed or on high speed video with a point of view more perpendicular to the general plane of spine rotation than the usual caddy view. The point of view would be above the golfer with the lens pointed approximately in the general axis of the spine. I say “general axis” to allow for the fact the spine moves substantially in three dimensions during the swing. With modern technology it seems television might be able to provide this view from time to time and add another perspective to our swing imagery and commentary.
When can we implement 3D glasses to watch the swings in “The Vault” ?
I’m all for it.
Can you take 2D captures and render them into the 3D (glasses) format ? or do things need to be initially shot
in that format or with two cameras or however they do it.
I’d look it up, but I have a lot of editing to do today.
Very interesting 1T, you’ve got a good mind. The assumption what we should be able to see the spiral from the basic face on angle, kind of gives me the feeling that that’s not where we’re going to find it. Not that it wouldn’t be visible there, just that that seems too simple or obvious to me. I like how you’re thinking in regards the different perspectives or views.
This is one of those long conversations and I’ve got a few of them going on at the moment, but there’s a lot of stuff being talked about these days that I see as connected in a fairly direct way. I think everything is connected anyway, but it just seems that there’s more of a boiling or rendering down of specifics taking place. Lag asked was it a mind’s eye type of thing, and in a way it is, but it’s also has physical manifestations both visible and invisible.
It’s interesting that Lag uses the term DNA to describe swing instinct changes because DNA is a sort of spiral shape. I read something a good while ago that a poster wrote at that Kelvin M(?) site about the action of the swing being ‘helical’ which is the term used to describe DNA. I thought it was a great observation because it’s kind of what I see in the lower back/sacrum/rear end of my favourite golf swings. It’s a blending of backswing and downswing motions. or the heart of the whole thing to begin with, I think. Thinking of it in terms of the Dantien, or COG(btw, these words are all just words to me, they describe happenings, the happenings aren’t the words in my view- I’m a pretty spiritual type of person, but I don’t buy into dogma… another long conversation, but I want to be clear that I see this is basic physical motion and not some sort of mystical energy magic) it moves in a spiral type of way, particularly during transition and acceleration. I was talking about it a while ago, but I see the Dantien going down and around in a sort of spiral type shape ‘from the top’ as it were. This sets things working in that manner in a lot of ways, kind of like a tug boat pulling a ship. I’m squeezed for time right now, but this action integral to, and the same as, everything else in the swing, it has to be as far as I’m concerned. We don’t have a whole lot of time to generate force in the golfswing, so while opposite are very much in effect, everything is working toward the same end. I’ll get back to some of this later, but like I was saying, a lot of this stuff is the same thing in different words or different places.
When I referred to observing in the 3 dimensions I was thinking more about a selected single point from which a conventional video or film camera would view a golfer, but it may have sounded like I meant 3D stereoscopic video. I apologize if I my post was not clear.
As for converting 2D images and video to 3D stereo, I first should say I am way out of my element on that subject, but a bit of googling suggests that, as you suspected, special stereo camera and equipment is needed to capture and play 3D stereo. Claims out there that software can convert conventional 2D images to 3D look to me as overblown, or snake oil, or are incredibly inefficient at best, as in practically useless for substantial projects. But I confess I am so far behind on the tech curve that no one should settle for my two cents about tech stuff. I am a dinosaur on the bleeding edge of extinction.
The outwardly visible swing spiral, of the club and body team, contains spirals, more or less hidden, and those spirals are themselves composed of spirals, maybe we can say, fractally. If our spiral arises from spirals within spirals, the total of spirals seems uncountable. How many spirals can we manage? I suppose a swing or hitting protocol is our attempt to identify a minimum set of conditions we can exploit well enough to herd our spirals to achieve our desired ball flight while we balance on the frail edge between seeming order and chaos. That may be obvious to everyone else, but it is an incomplete epiphany that I awoke with this morning, thanks to your question: “What if the spiral isn’t visible?”. It sounds like you are setting out to dig into the most significant conditions and spirals in our quest. I can imagine some of the spirals beneath the surface, more or less, though words to describe it fail me. ABS manifests how Lag sorted out this stuff and developed a hitting protocol to save us a lot of work and time trying to get there, and the work he did to accomplish that blows me away. I look forward with great anticipation to the work you are also doing for us with your posts.
1teebox
1T,
Your analogy of spirals on top of spirals and spirals inside of spirals is such a great image. This thread has brought some concrete images to some of the things I’ve thought for years but couldn’t really get to the bottom of. Not that I’ve gotten to the bottom yet, but, like I was saying, there’s a lot of connected discussions going on these days. Though that might also have something to do with the fact that I’ve got my nose stuck in pretty much all of them at this point The simplest explanations are often the best.
This is very similar to, or basically the same thing that I’m talking to Macs about regarding sequential rotation. On a very simple level we create a sequentially rotated structure with our bodies in the ‘backswing’. Again, like I was saying to Macs, the thighs turn further than the shins, knees more than heels, on and on up etc. etc. to the shoulders. This could be seen as a sort of spiral type structure. When we’re standing in one place and we want to accelerate something that we’re holding in our hands, up to and beyond 100 mph, then we’re pretty limited in our options. Spiraling with the body or rotating basically creates space or Lag(upper case ) between the parts. This is our best option, it basically creates the run up that we don’t have in golf. When you trot into a frisbee throw, you do all the stuff that we do, only it’s easier because they hold the thing that they’re propelling, and we’re not, believe it or not. The club is the tool, the ball is the thing we’re propelling. This is one of the things about ‘swinging and hitting’, as it were, and one of the things I disagree with about some of that obvious spiral image stuff- we can look beautiful and pretty swinging the club, but it may zero relationship to, or intent to move the ball. Holding the club softly and letting it waft through the air may create an aesthetically pleasing motion, but the real beauty, as we all know here, is the strike and the compression. You can’t get those two things if pretty is your main goal. Though it depends on what your pretty is, right?!
Where am I going. So, we create that spiraling structure with our bodies, and this could be seen as either visible or invisible or both at the same time. I often think it would be better for you guys to view your goal as ‘becoming’ your swing DNA as opposed to ‘changing’ it. Your spirals inside and on top of spirals kind of speaks to that.
The other basic spiral type structures we form are in the arms and out to the club. If you stand up straight and hold the club in your left hand and arm straight out in front of the shoulder, this forms basically a straight line. If you rotate the face/sweet spot, you create a spiral type shape between the top of the arm and the sweet spot. In my view, we blend these two rotated or spiraled situations, or actually they’re the same thing really. The other thing about spirals or twisting something that’s straight is that it gets shorter, and this is part of the way to make it powerful. When you compress or compact something big into a smaller area, it, for whatever reason or millions of reasons, becomes more potent or powerful. It’s probably not measurable with the arm, and isn’t really the thing with the arm, but I’m sure it happens anyway. I’m not saying that this shortening creates and stores or loads actual energy or force, maybe it does maybe it doesn’t, but it definitely gives us the opportunity to be forceful. I’m trying to stay on one track but it’s not working very well. My head is ‘spiraling’… I’m going to get back to this a bit later…
This stuff ties in with what I’m trying to talk about on the Small World thread, this spiraling or rotating doesn’t stop on either side of the ball as far as I’m concerned. It can, but I don’t think that’s ideal. And I don’t think it needs to stop in order to hit it straight, if anything it’s the opposite. I just don’t think anything ever stops, and I mean ever anywhere.
This is a great thread. It should have philosophy somewhere in it’s title.
Cheers…
I’ve been thinking a lot about these spirals, both visible and invisible. The visible ones are the physical, tangible ones, the invisible ones are the energy ones, the ones that ultimately create motion, the motion itself could actually be seen as invisible- can you see something as invisible And then maybe it’s all the same, who knows. I’m trying to figure out how energy works once it leaves the system. I speculate that it dissipates out into the world, that seems pretty obvious, and relates to how haphazard it is to throw the club at the ball in the ‘swinging’ type of motion. But what I wonder is what shape it takes while doing it, or if it were to keep going with infinite staying power, what shape would it be. I don’t imagine it would be straight. Would it even be on one contained path? Can we channel it like that?
Working in the pool with some of the exercises I was talking about opened my eyes to the shape of the energy we create. This comes from an intent, but the intent creates the action, which then creates the waves. It’s very easy to do, it takes no great skill. So the water puts a visible shape to the energy we create, and continues it on with it’s own structure. Or, we create the energy to fit the shape of the wave we see in our mind prior to the action. When I think about it, it’s very strange to think I can make the water go in funny directions down at the end of the pool by doing something at the other end. It’s one of those everyday basic things, that when I stop to think about it, it’s pretty cool.
In those ice hockey videos I posted on the Fitness thread, there are some exercises one of the guys is doing with long ropes. He’s making different shapes in the ropes with the energy he puts into them from the action of his body. It’s a good work out, and a lot like the pool ones I do. The moving ropes are very much like the waves in the water. The rope all of a sudden takes on this life and forms this really cool moving wave, they’re taking the form of the energy put into them- without it they’d be just lying there on the floor. Energy may be a too general term, but I don’t know what else to call it.
By rotating the end of the rope you’re holding, you can create a moving spiral type shape- it takes some effort, but it can be done. You might need a smaller rope. I think about those gymnasts who work the floor with those ribbons creating all manner of shapes and movements. This appears to be the same thing, the ribbon or rope takes the form of the energy put into them.
Then I was thinking that a spiral might be a sort of 3D wave, and maybe it is. I did a little research online but haven’t done much digging yet as I was more interested in the photos I found. Though one thing I found out was that all bones are spiraled to some degree, and the formation of their spirals begins while they’re still forming in the womb! That kind of blew me way, to say the least…
So with that stuff in mind, I was thinking about the possibility of the invisible spirals of energy we can and possibly do create with our bodies and club in the golf swing. The golf club is rotating pretty hard through the zone so it’s got to be spitting out some sort of spiral energy in the same way that those ribbon gymnasts do, only we can’t see them. You can see it in the divot spray sometimes, but that runs out of energy before you get a clear picture of what shape it might be if it’s motion was infinite or at least strong enough to make a full rotation on it’s arc.
I’m not 100% sure how all of this theorizing helps in our search for better golf, but I have a strong sense that it does.
Bom,
It’s intrigueing and fun to read and adds uniquely to the lore and the quest, in a way like “Golf in the Kingdom” and “The Kingdom of Shivas Irons” does. I think Shivas told us, with gusto, there is vastly more to golf than getting better if you dare to look. So I would guess that Michael Murphy would agree with your working through your thoughts. I sure do.
1teebox
1T…
So true! I really will have to read those books… I reckon an in depth study of anything gets you to the same place. I mentioned seeing the helical shape in the lower backs of my favourite swings, so I decided to do an experiment by stacking some Hogan midsections on top of themselves, and it’s more than a little interesting what emerged.
I think this discussion is just heating up, btw, and it’s all your fault! Like I was saying to you, this stuff is putting some clarity to thoughts I couldn’t seem to align. Thanks, man…
Btw, is it just me or does there seem to be a winking smiling face in the middle of all those Hogans? It’s like the jesus on the tortilla Sacrilicious!
I have to use an RR laughing head for that one… classic stuff, 1T… Fantastic!
The simplest explanations are often the best.
) between the parts. This is our best option, it basically creates the run up that we don’t have in golf. When you trot into a frisbee throw, you do all the stuff that we do, only it’s easier because they hold the thing that they’re propelling, and we’re not, believe it or not. The club is the tool, the ball is the thing we’re propelling. This is one of the things about ‘swinging and hitting’, as it were, and one of the things I disagree with about some of that obvious spiral image stuff- we can look beautiful and pretty swinging the club, but it may zero relationship to, or intent to move the ball. Holding the club softly and letting it waft through the air may create an aesthetically pleasing motion, but the real beauty, as we all know here, is the strike and the compression. You can’t get those two things if pretty is your main goal. Though it depends on what your pretty is, right?!
And then maybe it’s all the same, who knows. I’m trying to figure out how energy works once it leaves the system. I speculate that it dissipates out into the world, that seems pretty obvious, and relates to how haphazard it is to throw the club at the ball in the ‘swinging’ type of motion. But what I wonder is what shape it takes while doing it, or if it were to keep going with infinite staying power, what shape would it be. I don’t imagine it would be straight. Would it even be on one contained path? Can we channel it like that?
Sacrilicious!