Captain Chaos
From: Greg Lavern
A war weapon to do short game battle. The wizardry of The Real Moe Norman.
This sand club if you notice has a huge flange which purpose is to use the flange area by spanking the sand.
When the ball comes out of the bunker it is very soft and lands like a butterfly even on dry greens. It is very
effective when you don’t have much green to work with from green side bunkers. It is made from a metal alloyed material
with fairly pointed toe. Out of the heavy rough around the green the heavy flange cuts through the long stuff with ease.
Thanks
Authors Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
Andy
From Greg Lavern
Glad you like the thread and i appreciate your desire to learn young man.
Strive to hit the ball solid and on every shot so you become target oriented even on the range.
Hi John Lag Erickson
From: Greg Lavern
Well done! Moe’s comparison was based on a strong foundation. It starts from the initial set -up when he stands
wide with legs spread that forms the pyramid structure. The pyramid design has the weight closer to the ground where the feet are placed, thus forming a triangle of two lines underneath the zipper of his pants. From his pyramid base this allowed Moe to have a wide separation of the the right and left knees. The right was going down and the left was leading to the target while the inside of his legs still maintain the pyramid structure while staying centered.
Here the vertical drop takes place where John (lag) has provided a good illustration. When the vertical drop is initiated there is a wide pyramid separation of the legs that was formed and maintained from Moe’s initial wide pyramid set-up. Moe told me, “what goes up must come down” meaning when the left shoulder goes up and the right knee goes down forming a bow in the right side. The top of the left shoulder is also generating skyward to the peak of the pyramid.
thank you
Greg
Authors Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
There are similarities between the Lovett sand wedge and the club Moe gave me in the seventies with some
differences. The Lovett is much bigger and rounded on the back where mine is more low profile like a spoon. The width
at the top is much smaller on mine and has 13 grooves on the face while the width at the top is larger with 14 grooves on the Lovett. The Lovett sand wedge from viewing it would look very similar to anyone. If i did not have my sand iron in my hand as i write this piece i might not have noticed the difference in cosmetics, except between the dull finish or bright shine.
This new sand iron with a unconventional design should improve anyone’s bunker play with the larger flange and weighted club head.
The sand wedge i am making comparision to can be viewed in the book The Real Moe Norman. www.therealmoenorman.com
Thank you for the information Nolixul
Greg
Greg Lavern and Lawson Mitchell
The Real Moe Norman
I endorse this as a great thread and opportunity to better understand the magic of Moe’s swing.
Greg,
I have recently bought your book. I have quickly gone through the instruction aspects and will be re-reading it many times. I also look forward to the first half of the book and your insights into Moe as a person. A few years back I devoted my swing to the Moe method but after two years of could not quite find the secret. After reading your detailed insights I can’t wait to have another go.
There are a couple of aspects I hope you can clarify.
I believe I read somewhere that Moe was a natural left hander but played right hand. Is this true and if so do you believe it had any major influence the mechanics of his swing.
I believe my earlier attempt at Moe’s swing did not deliver the results because I was mainly focused on it being an arms and hand swing rather than torso. Would you mind elaborating further in the role of the torso versus the arms in Moe’s swing.
I believe Paul Henrick who knew Moe well and who’s father competed regularly against Moe on tour said that Moe’s left pectoral was enormous. I assume this would be from the strong arm lift post impact that was promoted by Bertholy?
I have a copy of Bertholy’s book and keep reminding myself to go through it.
I know Greg has quite a few thoughts on Moe’s relationship with Bertholy. Greg suggests in his book that Bertholy was spending a lot of time studying Moe
and learning why Moe’s methodology worked as well as it did.
I don’t know who Moe’s early influences where but I know he held George Knudson in very high regard. He was always talking about George, and rightfully so.
I see a lot of similarities in their approach toward the golf swing… particularly pre impact.
Hello Bushranger,
From: Greg Lavern
First of all i am really pleased the book inspired you so much to approach the golf swing with new confidence to become a better ball striker and reach your potential as you work on your golf swing. I also appreciate you endorsing this thread and your recommendation of the book The Real Moe Norman.
Moe was left handed and so was Hogan. In the early years it was difficult to get left handed clubs and the way the golf courses were built favored the right hand golfer. Both Moe and Hogan played from the right side with a big advantage of having the stronger lead arm in the golf swing. Today, golfers don’t have to worry about lack of clubs as the left hand clubs are plentiful and the success of many left handed tour stars have reassured the golf population.
Being left handed makes you stronger with the arm that is dominant though the mechanics are not effected since you still have to train and develop muscle memory with the proper mechanics or technique.
I developed my left arm to become really strong from total left side control where i did not ever worry about what the right side was doing since i wanted it as quite as possible. The right hand and right elbow in it’s folded position is retained. Moe taught me how to release way beyond the ball not at the ball like the majority of players.
As a right hand person i had to develop and strengthen the left arm. The way i did it was hitting 800 balls a day with Moe and hitting as many short wedge shots with only my left arm. The mass in my golf clubs also made the left arm strong since i played E3-E5 swing weight and that weight feels very normal still at age 55.
Your question with regard to the torso vs the arms. First of all the torso is from the back of the neck down the spine in your back where your stomach is in front of you. When you take the club away on the back swing there will be and extension of the arms as the hips as the torso turns. You want the club to get in behind you on the back swing so you are in position to make the vertical drop where the weight will move to the left as the legs and knees lead forward. I suggest that you retain the angle by leading the end of grip where the right hand will always catch up to square through the impact zone. If you are pulling with the left side your coiled torso will start to uncoil allowing the right side to release on it’ own accord through impact with the club face square. The stomach or the front of the torso will turn naturally to the target as the extension of the arms release from the sockets or arm pits and finally upward to a high finish. It is import to have full hip and torso rotation on the back swing where the way you move on the down swing will ensure the continued rotation of the torso and stomach to your target with the proper extension and use of the arms.
I will display my arm extension for you bushranger.
Thank you
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
I once asked Moe what was the best round he ever played…
he answered simply:
“six pins”
I do believe him because I once hit 3 pins in a round at Madera CC in California… so I know that something like that is attainable.
Moe didn’t like a ton of spin on the ball, he liked it to float into the green and stop… but not spin back off the green. “Landing with Butterfly wings”.
Any thoughts Greg on how Moe taught you to control backspin either through striking technique or setting up your gear?
Sorry to jump in a little tardy with this post and thanks Greg for your insights…
Pure Spice/Lag…Do you guys recall if Moe’s irons looked liked these? Just picked them last week for a song a day before your post…They looked interesting and begged me to give them a good home…Heads seem solid/heavy…The grips are leather with a reminder in them too…
Paul Henrick knew Moe and so did Paul Kennedy who were two Canadian Tour professional’s based in the Toronto area. The two Paul’s would drive up to Maple Downs G.C. north of Toronto to play golf as a change from playing the Brampton G.C. I played golf with both these fellows that knew Moe from the Canadian Tour. Paul Henrick’s father John Henrick was as senior head professional at the Brampton G.C. and competed in local tournaments and later senior events with Moe.
Moe was very strong in both hands with very large wrists. You would not want him to grab you and if he did you knew it. His left arm was extremely strong for pre-impact and after.
I met Paul Bertholy twice. Once when Moe and myself drove from Florida to Foxfire G.C. while we were practicing in Ormond
Beach Florida. The second time I met Paul Betholy was when I was invited to visit on my way back to Canada. Paul Bertholy was a gentleman to have conversation with and very dedicated to the study of positions, muscle memory and the golf mind.
Moe was interested in Paul Bertholy’s perspective on the mind and the vocabulary he could apply to the golf swing. At the same time Paul Bertholy would learn off Moe’s ability to strike the golf ball. THE BERTHOLY METHOD was modeled around Ben Hogan’s swing but when Paul Bertholy experienced The Real Moe Norman’s pure action he seen a man that repeated the Bertholy Method more often than anyone else. When the real Moe Norman and Paul Bertholy first met the introduction was arranged by the other Author of The Real Moe Norman, Lawson Mitchell who was my first teacher before he passed me on to The Real Moe Norman in 1974.
Moe’s early influences when he was a young teenager playing golf was Garry Cowan and Gerry Kessering who played together everyday with Moe at Rockway G.C. in Kitchener Ontario Canada. All three men became Canadian Champions. In future years Moe was influenced by Nick Westlock (Nick the Wedge) and George Knudson (Georgie Porgie) a name used by only George’s close friends.
Moe and George had great respect for each others talent and there were some similarities just as there were some differences on each approach to striking the golf ball. Both players had their own agendas but when the opportunity surfaced to play together whether a friendly match or a tournament, it was ball striking at its very best.
Thank you
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
I really can’t comment if the irons you purchased were Moe’s or not. The Real Moe Norman had lots of different sets of irons in the trunk of his car. Moe would have his irons three degrees upright and never had leather grips on when i played with him. The irons in your pics look like a solid blades and i am sure they have found a good home.
The Golf Craft irons with the square toes i remember were a grey tarnished material and swing at E3- E5 swing weight with filed leading edges so Moe’s irons would sit perfectly square.
When The Real Moe Norman answered your question about his best round played and replied six pins, he was referring
to a a friendly round with George Knudson at Oakdale G.C. Moe and George were playing $20.00 dollars a hole and a $100.00 a struck pin. Moe hit six pins and George hit a couple that designated Moe as the over all winner on holes and pins. Both were flag oriented and both players were focused on a smaller target and just not trying to knock it on the green. After the round George Knudson an amazing world class striker of the ball said one thing. “Let me out of here, thanks Moe.”
Another round was at Rocky way G.C. in Kitchener Ontario when Moe shot 59 and he hit a bunch of pins during that great scoring round. It was very attainable for Moe to hit that many pins when you consider on a daily bases Moe was always hitting it close to the hole. When The Real Moe Norman was feeling good and on a roll he could do tremendous things while striking the golf ball that opened golfers eyes and left their jaws dropping to their knees in awe of amazement.
Lag that must have been a great striking round when you hit three pins. You most likely were knocking the flag down all day and produced a great round. I asked Moe what he felt when he was zeroing in on pins and told me “the ball was trapped and stuck to the face, it was so easy.”
The Real Moe Norman did not want to spin the ball on the green like players do today. The majority will take big pelts or divots to put spin on the ball. Moe was into real purity and took bacon strips not hamburgers with his irons. The spin he wanted was minimal of giving himself two chances to hole the shot either on the fly or back it up a few feet as he was aim over top of the flag stick. His ball would drop down from the sky like a butterfly after it ran out of spin from the incredible flight he produced. Moe would hit the ball in the fourth groove and has been known for wearing out a set of irons. His gear was E3 swing weigh and produced solid contact and character of the ball then if he was swinging lighter clubs. There was a noticeable difference in flight from another good professional golfers and The Real Moe Norman. No Comparison.
is this a surprise to anyone else ? I’m looking at the set up here with the extended arms & hands a long way from the body, that has to spell flat gear doesn’t it ? Presumably his iron swing was similar ?
The fact that Moe swung on a shoulder plane and not a chi plane is going to require more upright gear, but you are correct that starting fully extended is going to tend to flatten that out again… so instead of irons 6 or 7 degrees upright they come back down to 2 or 3.
Hello Phdupey
From: Greg Lavern
I am certainly pleased you are thinking of getting the book. I encourage you, if anyone can make you a straight hitter of the golf ball it would be The Real Moe Norman that did it the better than anyone else. It will become a good bible of reference that you can always refer to if you have a swing problem. Lawson Mitchell and myself have taken golfers who have followed other methods of Moe and changed them around in a few days as i am sure Lag Erickson has given sound direction on Moe’s motion to his students. The results were simply the best the student has ever experienced in becoming a straight striker.
To answer your request: With the irons the ball was hit pure taking bacon strip divots. The ball would be hit straight and solid to the clouds, dropping down like a raindrop as the ball ran out of spin from the sky it would fall on the green like a butterfly landing to nest upon its target.
With a driver into the wind the ball would bore into the wind achieving more distance than long hitters under normal conditions because The Real Moe Norman hit the ball so solid. The ball was hit high with control landing soft on any fairway and even playing on a hard golf course the golf ball was dead middle that insured it running down the fairway and not into the rough.
