Nice pics/story Cheese
Here’s a great rear and overhead view of Trevino
RR
This is a public forum with a lot of inquisitive minds so all ideas should be on the table it seems to me. Getting them out there brings clarity to them one way or another. There’s a lot of value in debate and disagreement, not to mention a little bit of entertainment sometimes! Plus, you never know where the spark of a better or clearer idea might come from. I don’t know the official policy on this but since there hasn’t been any response to your post(at least publicly) I figured I’d throw my 2 cents in. I can’t imagine they’d want to create a forum that stifles free thought as long as it’s respectful and in good will. I for one enjoy hearing different ideas about the game…
Cheers…
Great Pics Cheese and Twomasters… thanks
DL3 when he was a pup
Seve - love his balance all the way
Eagle and BOM: Thought about a way to answer Eagle’s question in a general way and from my perspective. If the task is to move the clubhead (tip of the bat if you will) away from the target line there are many ways to do so but a couple ways stand out and is probably easier to explain.
Way 1: Pivot Driven Method: This method by itself takes care of task as long as one is using the pivot correctly. IMO, in a pivot driven method, the first foot or so of the takeaway is critical. If the movement is correct you are on auto-pilot. If done correctly the relationship between the shoulders and shaft invert themselves between the moment you arrive at the top and within the first inch of one going back the other way. Example: taking it back the shoulders will feel flatter and equadistant to the ground 1/4 of the way back with the shaft more vertical and then making your target turn movement the shoulders will feel steeper and the shaft flatter. Kind of difficult to explain. If one is certain that a pivot controlled method is best, just concentrate on how the pivot should actually work, and getting the clubhead further away from the line when we start from the top is nothing to worry about then. I sometimes like to use a pivot controlled method on those days that my hands or timing are not quite up to snuff for whatever reason. It’s a fun and accurate way to play but I’ve always liked the hands in control if I have a choice.
Way 2: Hands: The most fun IMO. Many, many ways to do this but one really needs good hands and a committment to a task. I think people who have a hard time with this are those who are ball bound, have an expection of what the result might be, or do not like to play with visual cues based on real life experiences. Basically this method is how one chooses with their hands how to reconcile the fact that ALL golf methods are the combination of two forces- linear and rotary. And it’s the convergence of these two forces that form the arc. Here’s only one way to do it. At the top, imagine the butt is at 12:00 and the square head at 6:00 and that the shaft is a helicopter blade. Move the clubhead to 3:00. If done correctly pay attention to what happens to your left hip- it clears at the same time and speed as the movement of the clubhead. Whew!!! I’m tired.
Thanks for the thoughts RR… I’ll give them a little think… a question sticks out though is in regard to the 12 o’clock 6 o’clock point- I can’t quite get my head around those two points… what view should I be looking at that clock face from… are you describing a sort of left wrist flattening move?
Cheers…
Twomasters… thanks a million for that Davis Love sequence- I had that taped to the inside cover of my homework journal in secondary school and I haven’t seen it since then. Fantastic… my teachers thought I was very studious having my head in the book so much. I also had a Curtis Strange one in there from around the same time where he’s wearing a turquoise shirt(do you have that one?)- I blame that sequence for my life long battle with shifting off the ball in my takeaway- bastard!
Davis is another guy who loads crazy big into his right leg on the downswing and gets his center placed behind impact to use all his force. In fact he was the first guy that got me wondering about the time old truth of getting to the left leg on the start of the downswing… for the longest time I couldn’t get my head around what he did. Frames 5, 6, 7, and 8 in that sequence are really interesting in that regard. The other thing it does and may be one of those cool byproducts of an action is that It really forces you to delay the hit- necessity being the mother of invention and all that… It’s easy to buy into a shift left getting you closer to the strike, I know I trusted that move for the longest time, but it’s a cheat move that kind of works in the moment but doesn’t last. It creates the opposite in the long run.
Range Rat…
Good observations on the takeaway…
We should always keep in mind that the purpose of the takeaway is to load up our power sources, by creating some angles in the hands, and with the shoulders that we can then leverage off.
One can also learn to load the hands and the pivot simultaneously, and this is a method used my many great strikers.
There are no advantages to not making a good shoulder turn. If you really want to strike the ball well with ease, you need good pivot rotation. I have never seen a top tier ball striker who just moved his arms back and forth with little or no torso rotation. The greats do
the opposite… lot of torso rotation, minimal arm travel both ways.
The sooner you can lock in this concept, the sooner you will get to good ball striking.
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https://forum.advancedballstriking.com/t/appropriate-gear-for-appropriate-golf-courses/269/1
Check that link Bom…you will find the Strange sequence complete with turquoise shirt and many other pics and swings
BOM: Real close, but that speaks more to my difficulty with words. Have a better idea. Go over to YouTube and look at Ben Hogan Super Slow Motion. It’s there you can see what he did to the clubhead. He “tried” to move it horizontally in relationship to the ground. This set off a whole chain of events beyond his control. Joe Norwood was, I think, one of the first to pronounce that a certain movement would have a causal relationship with something else because, afterall, all our body parts are connected. For instance, Norwood told us that a deliberate elbow movement from the top would cause a involuntary reactionary movement of the pivot. Cause and Effect. I think this is what Hogan zeroed in on. Norwoods method is cool but personally I don’t like wrapping my R elbow that far around my ribs to the uppoint- I like more freedom.
Now over to YouTube. Pause the slow motion precisely when the club gets set at the top (parallel to the target line). Look at the clubhead closely- it goes backwards horizontally for about an inch. You’re correct, the wrist will flatten but in response to the attempt to move the head “horizontally backwards.” The hands are @12:00 and the head @ 6:00. Hope that helps. Let me know what you think as I would really appreciate your comments and discussing this further. RR
Yes, this is true, but here is the deal…
If you don’t have either the strength or ability to fire the hands late, and then drive it through with the pivot, then you will always turn to soon, over accelerate, stall the pivot and hit inconsistent golf shots…
This is why I grind you guys so hard on modules #1 through #3… so that when we actually get to transition… M#5 and M#6… you will then be able to wait, and make the proper transition… because you will not only have the strength now to do it… you’ll also have the road map to get there…
The best way to clarify this is to realize we don’t hit the ball on the backswing…
I can take the club back… loop it around like a rodeo cowboy, and still make good contact. Once you learn the proper impact, and post impact sequencing… you have a lot of viable options for taking it back… and this fact is backup up by
endless historical references to great ball strikers.
Lagpressure: Thanks for your observation. I think we are talking about the same thing. In the post to Eagle and Bom I indicated the convergence of linear and rotary forces. I’m 5’7’ and 120 pounds with a 27" waistline- trust me I can turn with the best of them but age is starting to creep in a little 
I personally don’t like an early hand set with a pivot driven method- I prefer to keep the clubhead outside the hands. It makes us little guys feel more powerful. 
Lagpressure: Forgot to say “nice going in Vegas”- sounds like you had a good time. Didn’t happen to see Tiger around there did ya. RR- the cobra guy. 
Boy did Hogan get short in his old age 
youtube.com/watch?v=e_tkZegUozY
Here’s that vid RR… btw- if you highlight the address in the navigation bar up on top you can copy it then paste it into a post- that will make it a live link that can be clicked on directly… I’m reluctant to ask if you know how to copy and paste 
There it is!! that shirt is burned in my memory… great stuff- thanks for that
BOM: Thanks. Have to honest…I am clueless after “btw”. I’ll get it eventually. Tell me his club didn’t move horizontally backwards. You sound like someone who likes to experiment. Try it a few times and see if it doesn’t set your L hip properly, flatten the stroke/wrist, and set you up to just barrel on through. Who would of “thunk it” - a horizontal motion on an inclined plane. But since everything is connected it doesn’t stay horizontal for more than an inch or two. If you try it let me know if the move takes you to picture #9 of the Hogan sequence.
Bom: Thought of a different way to view the video…look at the convergence of the water line and the horizon line. At the top the clubhead travels on that line horizontally or as I call it " hoganzontally". RR Have fun!
that link of Hogan in my opinion is the absolute most insightful thing he ever left us… and I don’t think this was meant to be seen by the public…
But talk about tipping hand and showing all his secrets…
They are all there if you know where to look…