Steep Shoulders and Swinging out to the right

Hi Lag,

There have been lots of threads where the merits of turning the shoulders flat through the ball have been discussed. I wanted to ask if it was actually possible to “swing left” on plane with steep shoulders or whether the best that can be hoped for is to go onto the equal angular post impact plane and to risk having to time the flip to a certain extent? I mention it as out of all of the things that limit or remove my life long tendency to hook the ball it is flattening my shoulder plane that seems to have the most direct impact.

Cheers, Arnie

Yes it can be done by chicken winging the left arm through impact. This helps keep the shaft on plane, but there is significant power loss.

Personally I think it’s better to chicken wing with steep shoulders than to throw the arms off the body post impact.

Ideally, you learn to rotate level from a deep 4:30 line with a right palm up “feeling” at P4.

Got it, just remembering those old threads where Lee Westwood’s steep shoulders, bent left arm was discussed in this regard. I think BOM mentioned that Jose-Maria did something similar as well.

Thanks Lag.

Cheers, Arnie

Lanny Watkins and a bunch of other guys…
The ones that didn’t listen to the chicken wing naysayers filled their bank accounts and their trophy shelves. The ones that tried to extend out with straight arms at P4 without increasing post impact pivot thrust to CREATE it, fell off the map.

Goosen too right? Shinky left and super steep shoulders . . .


Is there anything you suggest (other than practice and feel) to get the timing perfect for when (at 4:30 line) the rockets fire for a powerful level pivot rotation?

I feel the two biggest timing issues are erring with the 4:30 line pivot timing (taking place a little too early or a little too late) relative to the right arm lowering with straightening elbow. That said, to go to extremes with my understanding - at the far end of the scale with the powerful pivot coming way too early is OTT, thin, pull…and at the far end of the scale with the pivot coming way too late (or a stalled pivot) is loss of speed/shaft lag and basically left with only an arms/hands swing. If you were going to err a tiny bit on one side or the other (powerful level pivot coming a tiny bit to early or a tiny bit too late), which is the better choice in your opinion?

What you are describing is a player who does not have proper forearm rotation integrated into the golf swing.

You have to train the forearms to rotate open, then rotate back with a vicious strike. When you get the club behind you with the ability to CRANK the shaft from there through the 4:30 line and into impact, there is little or no timing involved. The torso can rotate hard and fast, once the legs have done their job first.

Most people who put the club behind them, flat and or laid off, don’t have properly trained forearms, so they turn and either hit a push or hit it fat or throw the right arm out to get some kind of motion going.

You have to learn to do this… and this is what I teach students to do… but it takes time… just like anything else… but the good news is… these are things the can be learned… and by most anyone. You don’t have to look far to realize that not only did the great strikers do this… but the tell you to do this. I am not teaching anything new. Everyone will have a different looking swing, but although swings appear different from player to player, the laws of physics stay the same.

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When you train . . . I assume that you do full speed into the bag . . . looking at them giant body bags y’all built . . .

I read this book recently this cat wrote on Hogan and practicing SLOOOOOOOOOW . . . like really slow. Is there anything to that? I’m sure we’re trying to max out the physics and dynamics . . . but is there a place for that kind of practice. This dude was referencing all these studies about piano players practicing super slow and how whatever skool that Monica Seles tennis chick came out of had some sort of super slow training? Not sure . . .

There certainly is something to practicing slow… but I think it is better to practice at a speed that you will be actually swinging the club… so the muscles are trained in real time… with real pressures and forces because a lot of the “positions” in a golf swing are nothing more that pass through points that are created by forces, opposing forces, and other pressures. The feel in the hands need to learn the right pressures, and you can’t get that from slow motion.

I learned guitar when I was young, and I would practice slow because I had to… to learn chords and scales, but I would then play them as fast as I could so that I could handle doing it at the correct speed later down the road and with ease.
But playing the piano or guitar doesn’t require the huge pull of CF… unless your spinning in a cage on stage or something.

I think there is some value in slow motion training for spacial awareness issues, and even isometric holds for strength and flexibility maybe at P2 and finish. I am not a huge fan of that because I see transition as a flow, not a stop and hold… but if a player has flexibility issues, and simply can’t turn, then maybe stretching that out a bit with yoga or isometric poses could have value… maybe a lot of value… for some.

I am not a fan of weighted clubs, weight lifting, fan clubs or other non golf aids… because from my experience, it can change your feel significantly, and also be very harmful to your touch around the greens. I remember swinging a fan club 200 times, then picking up a putter, and it felt light as a tooth pick and I had zero feel…

I think you can learn the golf swing best by simply training with a real golf club only. Heavy flat and stiff is even better.

I did read this by Lag on another thread

That’s funny! I tell you what . . . . IF I played the git-tar . . . I’d be rockin’ some major manipulation of cf and cp . . . . I’d be doin’ some gyratin’ . . . slingin’ my axe and starter mullet around . . . and then go pick up all the bra’s that would be lit on FIRE!!! Cuz that’s how I Doooooz it. Then catch all the ladeez at the after the after party . . . .

Just one of the many amazing concepts of advanced ball striking - feeling off-plane to be on-plane; fighting one way and fighting it another way there… these are called compensations in other golfing circles. :sunglasses: