ps, what’s your deal anyway, 12 piece bucket?
Cheers…
Good post . . . I haven’t put this to the test . . . but I’d say generally most of the greats swung down over their backstroke handpath . . . now I could completely get busted in the mouth on that . . . . but that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it . . . at this point. To your point about Snead and Hogan . . . they both were pretty similar hand path wise when the left arm is parallel on the backstroke . . . but then when you get 'em left arm parallel on the downstroke you can see some major differences in their hand paths . . . . Snead from all accounts must have been like a Dustin Johnson type freakish athlete . . . probably could play better from that left arm out on the toe line I reckon? Evidently he is/was Philly MacGleno’s model cuz he could “fly all the windows?” Who knows all top secret double naught spy type stuff with the MO-RAD cats. But to my eye . . .you see cats talking about the Snead squat . . . what I see is he spun earlier than Hogan and then went forward . . . so his right leg didn’t straighten out early . . . versus Hogan to my eye had everything going forward and down straightening out the right leg . . so forward and then rotate? But heck I’m going blind for reasons to be left untolt 
My deal . . . hmmmm . . . I got lots of deals . . . I’m still trying to figure out what my deal is honestly. I got a feeling this joint could be instrumental in closing my deal?
Yeah, I’ve got some issues with the Snead squat and that’s one of them. It seems so obvious, but he came out over his backswing and obviously used ‘the Snead squat’… therefore, I don’t see how that can be a good method for getting the club to the inside. It pushes the right side out too early I reckon, it’s a sort of early spin out and effects everything even if it’s only felt in the legs. I’m on the Hogan, DeVicnezo side of things that works forward while holding then switches the centre hard and fast to go around the corner. I don’t see that move as trying to get to the left side early, as some people seem to think Hogan did. It’s a natural athletic move that’s in every sport, I see it as the athletic engine and we all just hang our different coordination requirements on it and go play whatever game it is.
I don’t see it as a straightening of the right leg as such, more of a lean into and past a flexing left knee, from behind. The left side is so important during acceleration that it needs to be loaded and ready to rip. If it’s already stretched, or high too soon, it’s not living up to it’s potential. But it’s a two sided deal, obviously.
I agree about the over move of the greats, it’s a fascinating topic I think, there’s lots to say about it. I’ll try and get to some of it later…
No worries on the deal, I know the feeling. if you’re not still trying to figure out your full deal, then you’re not trying to get better… at least that’s how I like to see it…
that was one heck of a post Bom. Lag talks about the two loops but I really did not understand the in to out loop till now and especially watching this Julius Boros swing.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRqk3ONFEg[/youtube]
I agree that the in to out loop is more of a noodle doubled up than a loop or you are toast and with the out to in loop you have more room. From your own swing sequence that you posted recently it looks very much like Lag’s. I think those are out to in noodles??? It will be nice to see that as a motion sequence if possible.
Lastly have you ever played with a 6-8 degree flat long iron. I believe if havent that might limit your going left at it. Just a thought. 
Here is Lee Buck talking about Boros contantly moving.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30BA_Es_AjE[/youtube]
Great stuff there, Macs. Trevino liked to do a bit of dancing before he hit too, and I love the little followthrough strut he did after a good one, with the head still down to the side.
Btw, what does this mean? Does it mean limit hitting it left, or accelerating left in the action… I’m cornfused…
The thing with loops is the thing that you point out about the hands going deeper than the club then coming over their back path on the way down, and switching sides with the clubhead. This is one of those switching sides things I mentioned. With this action, and I like it, the clubhead is basically always being led, and right from the start. This is why dragging the club away, or getting the legs and feet involved early, leads to good things. You set up that ‘leading the way’ system that carries through. I don’t like active wrist setting because imo, it’s one of those Hogan opposites that actually causes the thing you’re trying to avoid, which is an early fling, or the like. Look at Ernie Els for that. He was a club dragger, low and slow sort of guy when he was at his best, then Leadbetter got his hooks far in and he’s trying to set it early. And the earlier he sets it the more he casts it, it’s a disaster. It’s tough to get through to that line of thinking because the cure feels like the fault, in that the clubhead is closer to the ball than the hands as you’re taking it away. But if you drag it away you can ‘drag’ it through. If you pick it away, it’ll feel good, but I don’t think it works like that in the long run. I call this kind of thing ‘building your downswing out of your backswing’, it’s a classic opposites situation. If you look at the first 3 or so feet of Hogan’s swing, you’ll see it all there, the same with Nelson. It might be a tough sell, but in my view, Hogan set it really late in terms of the length of his overall action. Their right arms are high and and on top, not unlike your right arm operates when throwing a ball. If you tried to get into your pre release condition during a wind up for a throw, you’d have no chance. So why do we insist on trying to do that in the golf swing? Rickie Fowler or Jimmy Bruen and others are extremes of this in my mind, good ones too. Their right arms are operating more athletically than golf teaching suggests they should, and it looks a bit funky, but there’s a hell of a lot to learn from it. This is why late setters tend to very strong hitters. Some would say more inconsistent but I would challenge that assessment. If you’re not going to hit every shot perfectly, which you’re not, you may as well shoot for hitting most of them strong.
These guys look loopy because they are, the club does a loop around the hands in transition just like a ball in your fingers does if you’re going to throw it with any conviction. I’ll add some photos. The throw is on a different energy plane than we’re looking for, but the principles are the same, I’m sure of it. Lucas Glover is another guy, he’s a pure athlete and has that loop out with the hands as the club goes behind them and him. And he absolutely munches it. He’s a bit swingery and steep in the shoulders, but he brings the club in there pretty damn strong. It might be kind of scary if he matched up is through swing shoulder angle with his backswing one. And apparently he can throw a football close to NFL level. That’s the kind of stuff I look into and look for when I’m studying a guy’s action- what’s he drawing from, what are the reasons he’s doing this the way he is. It’s not always obvious, but it all plays a part.
I’ve got an arrow pointing out of Beckett’s hand representing where the club would be if he had one in his hand- this would be a total butt end drag away with the clubhead almost still at the ball. WIth this kind of thing, I’m talking about principles, not exact recreations. Obviously the club is heavy so it would be hard to move it if it were that arrow, though Jimmy Bruen got pretty close, as does Fowler, though I suspect Bruen’s clubs are about the weight of 3 of Fowler’s. Obviously these guys would be labeled as swingers, and give you Fowler on that, but not Glover. But I don’t see this as a swinger’s only deal, because Hogan and Nelson did the same thing principally, but not as exaggerated.
This is a long conversation, and I haven’t gotten to the bottom of it yet, but it’s one of the things on my list of unsettled debts- there’s something, if not a lot, in it…
For me always keeping in motion means a great deal. I personally don’t know how people can go from a static- motionless position at adress- into a dynamic coil without some sort of hiccup going on. I’m always moving…it may be something very very small or slight, or something even larger, but something is always in motion- most of the time my feet and club…until it’s time to go…then I feel my feet set by way of a very very slight simultaneous sit down and even slighter bump forward. I’ve seen scores of people at the range standing over a ball for longer than it takes to eat a Slim Jim and have a good slug of Coke to wash it down…then they pull the trigger…and everything is out of whack and a mess.
I like watching those old guys move like they do…poetry to me. Good stuff. 
RR
I could read your stuff all day long, Bom. Hope in a way that the debt isn’t settled any time soon…
I agree with Bom that an early wrist set in the backswing seems to marry up with an early release in the downswing and that a late wrist set tends to produce a later release of the club. In my own expierence when I get the club set early its like my wrists are totally passive for the remainder of the backswing waiting to do something. When I finally complete my backswing and transition to my downswing my wrist seem to want to release at the same time - which of course is invariably to soon. Conversely, when I “drag” the clubhead a bit and produce a late wrist set it feels as if the wrists have not quite yet fully finished cocking as I transition to my downswing creating a feeling of much more lag moving down to the ball. It’s a much more dynamic action - very “reactive” in nature compared to the “okay, when do I uncock my wrists” feeling I get form the early wrist set. Kind of goes with the “stay in motion” idea of the swing you guys have been talking about. I also agree with Bom that you get a stronger hit from this type of action. Maybe it has something to do with the “stretch-shorten cycle” associated with muscle activity. I think research in this area shows that when you load a muscle to perform a quick, dynamic motion, the faster you can move into this motion the stronger the muscle will react. An example I like to think of that would illustrate this is to imagine someone trying to perform a standing vertical jump. The person would first squat - then fire upward with his legs. Do you think a higher jump will be achieved by squating, pausing and then thrusting upward or by squating and rebounding instantly from that squat with the upward thrust. I’m betting the latter will produce a higher jump. The belief is that any delay intoduced into the motion that the muscle has been prepared to perform will cause a significant amount of it’s energy to be dissapated in the form of of heat. This could be part of the reason you get a stronger action with this type of wrist set - it produces a more immediate release of the wrists after they are cocked.
Dinkbat
Good stuff Bom.
People talk endlessly about “lag” on the downswing, and it’s importance. John( Lag) points out that it is a vapor trail, usually indicating proper action( not so in forced or false lag).
I would think that this “lag” on the backswing/takeaway is similar…it is a vapor trail indicating correct action…body/pivot generated motion. The stored energy is like spring loading the clubhead, eventually flips it over, and at least helps to cock the wrists and hold the clubhead back during the transition…to restart a new lag in the forward swing.
I guess all rules have exceptions. Miller and Faldo might be good examples. I think it has been speculated that this might explain Faldo’s unimpressive distance. ( did it promote his great record however?, or was his record in spite of this?)
It’d be interesting to see DTL’s of them vs Fowler with the hands at the same spot you showed Fowler above. And maybe someone can speculate why Miller and Faldo could avoid the pitfalls of the early set.
Let me add, Miller and Faldo mat NOT be exceptions. They may have an early set, but do it in way that is more acceptable…like keeping the clubhead outside the hands.
I’ll defer to smarter eyes.
Not claiming to have smarter eyes eagle 
, but this (older) sequence of Lag hitting a two iron of the deck shows a very early wrist set.
This is what he has to say about it on http://advancedballstriking.com/LTLGM/Pages10-19.html:
I’m not sure that he’s still doing things like this, I’ll let the good man himself comment on that 
FYI The top image is the backswing and the bottom one is the downswing.
Oh no…I’m doomed I guess.
I set the wrists early but not deliberately…it just happens. And the clubhead is inside the hands and behind me at about waist high. In fact, I don’t think there has ever been someone commenting on my action that doesn’t say something like…“wow you use a lot of wrist, when do you start setting them?”. I always respond “I don’t know it just happens.” 
I can keep the clubhead outside the hands but I don’t like that feel as it is a shoulder/torso dominated action and the shaft is parallel to or on top of the 8:00 line looking down about 1/4 of the way back. Using ABS navigation it would be 2:00 looking down. In my mind everything loads together and in harmony…the shoulders, torso, arms, and hands. If you are pure drag loading going back and keeping the clubhead outside the hands it just doesn’t seem powerful to me…it is powerful though and I can do it that way…but I need to feel a lot of, and be in touch with my hands. In my mind the hands contain the mojo…so if I feel, or deliberately have a late set, than there is an urge to then get them too active too early because they didn’t feel strong and powerful going back…whereas if they are active early then I feel they can be left alone and let the transition and pivot bring them to the firing area. That’s just my rambling outlook…active early then they can wait…active late then they start too early. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
My guess would be my hands are reacting to the amount of forearm rotation I use going back…which is a lot.
I also think some of my feels come from the fact that I am quite small. At risk of great personal embarassment I’ll give you guys a little peek: my wrist circumference is 6" 
and I think small people tend to use, or have a mindset that since there is little body on its own to use then there has to be a very good marriage between body and hands where both are active and supportive at the same time going back for a delayed maximum controlled chaos through the ball.
Will get something up on YT soon and we can have some fun- just have a few more tech things to learn about uploading over there…how does the Rat Channel sound? RR
Interestingly, Miller is actually quite Fowler-ish in the takeaway, though I’d really have to say that Fowler is quite Miller-ish, in all fairness. I think there’s a big difference between setting the wrists back on the pre impact plane, and having them work up with more of a throwers elbow lead. My whole thing with this area, and Dingbat’s post was very enlightening in this regard, thanks a lot for that, is that forcing the elbow, wrist and hand into the pre impact form while actually going away from the ball, just doesn’t add up to me. When Faldo hooked up with Leadbetter, he was fairly steep in his overall action, and had the bendy leg drive. Though, he was world class, and the old impact photos show why. One of the things he talked about in his book just after the transformation, was setting the wrists back on themselves in the backswing. I would see that as the thing that you don’t want to do. Miller didn’t do that, he contained the club inside the right forearm on the way back, in much more of at throwers type action. It’s fairly strenuous to do, and you’ll feel some pressure build up while you’re doing. The thing is that it’s not actively ‘up’ it’s just led and contained for a bit and makes it’s way, in fact it’s not actively anything imo- the weight of the club and the motion of your action should set the club whenever it needs to be done. If you force a set style onto a body action that that doesn’t require it, it’s like oil and water or any other non functional mix analogy you can think of.
The other really cool thing about this action, and I suspect Hogan either figured this out or just did it naturally, is that when you stay strong in this way it really forces the upper arm to rotate back in the exact way that you’d want it to, but it happens very naturally and sets you right into that classic Hogan elbow situation.
I’ve seen some video of Lag hitting a driver where he drags the club away really well with his body. With a swing like his, or a swing like Hogan’s they’re quite short in terms of arm travel, so what may look like an early set, really isn’t imo. This isn’t something that takes very long, it’s a brief moment that sets you on the track for what you want to do. I can’t speak for Lag on that, but seeing that drag action in the first couple of feet is what I’m talking about, and you see it in all the classic actions and it’s because the big things are involved from the get go. If you want to look at the DeVicnezo sequence I posted in the Feets and Legs thread and take a look at the first few feet and you’ll see the shaft actually bending backwards against the weight of the clubhead being led away by his body. And in the fourth frame of the first sequence his right arm is still on top with a cup in his left wrist, the club then is set, he’s not setting it, and in my view, the right arm is being rotatED he’s not rotatING it. Hogan did this too, imo. And he has a similar Miller Barber, Lucas Glover out loop with the hands coming down, while the club goes in behind them. He’s always leading the club. RDV, that is…
I can’t get to every detail in a post, but I’m speaking in principles of motion, and since CheeseDonkey seems to enjoy my suffering, I’ll keep adding to the picture…
Cheers…
I would only be in agreement if we are talking about swinging…
ABS is about hitting and we crank late into impact regardless of how we get from address to P3.
Captain Chaos
There’s no divide in the stuff, man, this is about athleticism. Cranking it late is the goal, and it’s more achievable if you have something to crank against. Hitting and swinging has absolutely nothing to do with it.
This is very well put, Eagle, and is basically what I’m trying to say. It’s kind of morphed from the original discussion about hand path, but it’s essentially the same thing. I’m speaking from my experience with this stuff, I went down the active setting road and it felt great to begin with because you have this sense of the club really being in the place you’d want it when you strike it. But over time it just didn’t work because when you set it in motion it wants to run away from you and you have fight so hard to hold onto it to get it to the point where you can use it. It’s like the opposite discussion in it’s essence, Hogan was fairly smart, to say the least…
I’m going to add two photos that captures a little bit of it in terms of the right arm ‘throwers’ action going back and coming down…
Don’t mind me fellas…just doing a little art work…carry on RR
I like it, RR… plus your comment gave me a good laugh too…