Yeah, RR, this is definitely a long and fascinating discussion… so much so that it’s kind of overwhelming to think about. Where is the mind loacted and where does it end and where does the body begin? Are they really different even though we’re sure they are? I’m a little tired to get into it right now. The body ‘does’ so many cool and desirable things through simple acts of thought that it makes me wonder can you make the body do anything without the correct one. Can you have more than one motion in one thought or is the thought the goal and then the body responds with motions? Does this then mean that all movement is thought? We have voluntary and involuntary muscles, luckily for us! So then if the voluntary muscles require conscious involvement or desire to work, then the body will only do what it’s told- so we better have the right idea of how to do what we want to do. I don’t think you can change you’re movements without changing your pictures. It’s definitely too late for these types of thoughts- they wont allow me to sleep and I really want to… hmm, interesting.
It’s a great topic, thanks for bringing it up…
I just looked up the definition of ‘voluntary muscle’ in the encyclopedia and had to post it because I thought it was so cool and kind of inspiring…
voluntary muscle (skeletal, striped, or striated muscle) Muscle that is under the control of the will
I had a flare up of an old neck injury so I’m limited in my typing. Incidentally, if anyone has any experience with herniated discs in the neck(C5-C6) i’d appreciate any thoughts or lessons learned re: course of action, treatment, rehab etc. Surgery seems a bit extreme for me but it’s on the table as an option. Thanks…
This is a response to Littlealm’s question- as far as my ideas on good ball striking, these would be some basics. I’m putting them over here since they don’t really make sense in that other thread.
-Understanding from the get go where the ball is located in relation to you- the combination of vertical and horizontal planes for the sake of better terms. This understanding is one of the basic things that separates good from poor players. Most poor to average players, beginners in particular, are obsessed with the vertical plane and think only that the ball is below them. With a clear understanding and acceptance of where the ball is, you can establish a long lasting relationship with it that will encourage the required movements. This understanding sets everything up and is fundamental to everything you do in the swing. So many things that people try to do are in direct conflict with how they actually see it working in their minds, and you can’t win that battle. If you had to be on an extreme, I’d say that if you never thought of the ball as below you and only thought of it as out in front of you, you’d lose very little- this seems to fit with ABS thinking.
-Speed and strength into impact, delivered into the ball as a full body experience. I think in terms of pre impact speed, then impact and post impact strength. Car crashes are worse the faster the car is going before the impact. I like to see that snap into impact that’s held and really pops the ball. This cant be done alone by either the hands and arms or the body.
-Understanding impact, where you hit the ball and why. And on from this, clubface awareness. A lot of the things we see in the downswings of great strikers are linked to this in my opinion, and you can’t get into those positions if you don’t know why you need to. That might be a bit cryptic.
-I see the game primarily as one of propulsion, and secondarily as one of direction. Learn to propel it correctly and directing it is relatively easy. And importantly, thoughts of direction while swinging the club are rarely, if ever, anything but destructive. Alignment and direction should be dealt with during set up and while fitting yourself into the shot- after that it’s time to go at it, then take what you get.
-I believe in what people can do given the opportunity. When people struggle to play golf, particularly if they’re putting in some effort, I don’t see it as a lack of ability, but as a lack of understanding. It’s a hard game, but it’s not that hard. I also don’t think there’s a whole lot to be gained by thinking it’s all very complicated.
…I’m doing all this with one handed typing since my left arm is in a sling, so I’m going to give it a break for now. Those are some of my basic thoughts on the game/swing without being all that technical. Feel free to ask questions for deeper thoughts. My posting will be little less frequent over the next while due to this injury.
Cheers…
BOM
BOM,
great post!
I really liked the part about propulsion before direction. I too have fallen into the trap of trying to fix the direction of the ball while I should have been working on get getting more (m * v) into the shot. Proper propulsion ‘straightens out’ the directional issues and changes trajectory as well. . .
About your neck. I played a round a couple of months ago with a guy who had had herniated discs in his neck. He told me he that as a last resort (before surgery) he went to a (hatha) yoga teacher who gave him some very specific exercises that helped almost instantly. Might be good to check out if you haven’t already.
Good luck man!
BOM:…injuries suck. But what a great time to work on the short game…a little duct tape on the neck and one-handed chips… works everytime. 
Bom, that’s the best thing I’ve ever read that you’ve written. Thanks. Hope your neck gets better soon.
This might seem a bit “off the fairway” as Bom says, but I post it because it is fascinating, and deals with motion, forces, power, and consequences of improper support. Maybe our engineers can help us get some golfswing benefit. Maybe RR will see some cheese here. 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mclp9QmCGs[/youtube]
Bom…hope your neck is better.
It may not be a big surprise to find out that I absolutely love this video. I reckon it’s all in there: walking, running, golf swing, general bi-ped locomotion- and this is some real loco- motion! Such a bad joke… sorry, Captain…
What sticks out a mile for starters is the centre line- it’s amazing. For all that mass and energy flailing around the place, it’s all basically moving around that line. Pin it on the right hand side of the support tower in the background and it stays pretty constant all the way. The guy who walked out there obviously knew the deal. And importantly, it’s not so much a level line, it’s more of a centre point in space that the four corners are wobbling around, just like walking. If you go to 2:37-ish in the video it’s a much clearer angle to see the alternating motions of the corners. When you walk or run, your arms and legs alternate positions while your centre(belly button area) stays rock solid. Right leg goes back while right arm goes forward, as you move they pass through a level moment and then do the opposite on and on with the reciprocal on the other side as you move/because you move/in order to move- I’m not sure which one is the truth. If you imagined standing that mid section of the bridge upright you can get the sense the walking body. You could imagine it sort of waddling away like the way a seal walks.
This transfers over to the basic structure of the golf swing because this is the way we move. Strong centre. In the backswing the right shoulder goes away from right foot, left shoulder goes away from left foot. Ships pass in the night- transferring of mass, switch sides in motion and again the left shoulder pulls away from left foot and the right shoulder moves away from right foot but in the opposite way from the backswing. All the while the centre stays strong. Just like the bridge. Great spot on the video, Eagle…
btw, cheers for the thoughts on the neck- golfers and neck injuries are not a good team…
Amazing video - thanks for posting.
The best lesson I see from this video in golf is that what works on paper doesn’t necessary work in real life. And it’s why science is not improving golfers.
Bom’s paragraph:
I wouldn’t say lack of understanding but more getting distracted with untruths, i.e. untruths for you. Too many good players have very minimal understanding. But maybe they just understand that the key to their game is not understanding.
We know golf is all confidence and putting faith in an instructor to fix you up is really admitting you have little confidence in yourself. It took me a long time to learn this, going weekly to respected instructors and really getting nowhere. But I know I have the ability.
I was too much in the mindset of them getting me swinging right rather than me getting me swinging right, just with their occasional guidance. In fact the better reputation the instructor, the more faith I put in them. Too many lessons, too much dependence.
My belief as to why TGM is not really producing results that it should given it’s widespread popularity is because people get radical about it and put all their confidence in a book they believe must be the truth because they finally understand a paragraph the same way as someone else does. And the more belief you have in something else, the less you have in yourself.
My contribution to the ‘small world’ topic–the guy that picks up all the chicks is the one who has a naturally derived confidence, the one who has dug it out of the dirt (no sexual connotation intended), not the one who gets a fake confidence from taking ‘pickup’ classes.
Of course adults don’t have the time and free mind to find golf like a kid, so guidance is helpful, but it can’t replace the digging–I’m convinced of it.
Thanks to whoever converted the link to the video.
Steb and Bom, great insights. They have added to my understanding.
Steb said: The best lesson I see from this video in golf is that what works on paper doesn’t necessary work in real life. And it’s why science is not improving golfers.
Bom said: This transfers over to the basic structure of the golf swing because this is the way we move. Strong centre. In the backswing the right shoulder goes away from right foot, left shoulder goes away from left foot. Ships pass in the night- transferring of mass, switch sides in motion and again the left shoulder pulls away from left foot and the right shoulder moves away from right foot but in the opposite way from the backswing. All the while the centre stays strong. Just like the bridge.
I first saw this summer of 1973 on an old school movie projector, hanging around after a college physics class. The image has been stuck and percolating in my mind ever since. It had an impact on me, and taught me things I still cannot put into words. When I hear of vibrations, waves, oscillations, resonance, harmony, engineering, support, crashing…I often re-think of this bridge. Thanks to youtube…it can be shared widely, and you guys can help me squeeze all the lessons form it.
One thing that hits home with me as far ABS goes is the importance of support. The Tacoma bridge failed due to lack of proper support. Lag can say (much) better than me, but my feeling is the drills in ABS build strength,thus support. Module 2,the ground forces module, builds proper lower body support for the swing. And in addition to the lower body, the use of opposing forces in various body parts, keeps the swing on track. Lag has said Two has one of the best Module 2 actions in his swing of all golfers he has seen. Must be one good reason for his superior results.
Think I’ll go downstairs and do some Module 2…
eagle
The important thing is that you realize it’s bad, so no apologies needed. 
Take care of that neck as that can be a debilitating injury. There’s nothing that’ll make you realize how much we take good health for granted than an injury that puts in pain for even the smallest of movements.
Cheers,
Captain Chaos
I have enough trouble with my swing without the engineers who build that bridge helping me!
Seriously though, isn’t everything a learning experience…just some more dangerous than others.
Some wise words from a painter I recently came across- Thomas Hart Benton. His paintings are maybe the most alive or full of movement I’ve ever seen- the ideas in the quotes below seem to fit with that… you could take them straight to the golf course.
-You can’t change your mind up on a scaffold without the risk of everything going awry. You must solve your problems before you get up there.
-I paint every day. Sometimes I hate painting, but I keep at it, thinking always that before I croak I’ll really learn how to do it – maybe as well as some of the old painters.
-Get tight and paint loose
This one Screams ABS! 
good find!
Cool, man… yeah, this is a real gem imo.
Re: the direction/propulsion issue that you mentioned earlier… I was just thinking about there and how important this distinction is. It’s so important to get the club coming into impact from a low and behind you position for so many reasons, that to be thinking directionally makes it impossible to allow the club to make that journey long enough for it to be effective. The ‘ball below me/directional thinkers’ need to have the club online with the target which makes it impossible to propel correctly and more likely than not creates a steep and weak journey through impact…
Hey Bom:
I do some of my best thinking while riding the tractor picking up range rocks @ night. Maybe I think too much.
I would like to see what would happen if this game were taught by making the process “reactionary” versus “stationary” by having the ball moving toward us like baseball. Only the ball would be rolling on the ground. Never found anyone willing to be the pitcher.
I would imagine we would start the backswing when the ball is about 8-10 feet in front of us. But more importantly, if we learn this way…it would seem that there isn’t enough time to use flippy hands. Instead, the pivot would be responsible.
In order to make solid contact with flippy hands…the timing required to do so would be something almost impossible to achieve. Perhaps instinctively, we would cohesively tie all the major body parts together and use it instead.
Thoughts? RR
Very true,
I sometimes find it difficult to distance myself from the ‘ball below me/directional thinkers’.
E.g. if I watch a really upright swing before setting up to a shot myself, I sometimes subconsciously start to believe that the ball IS below me and that I have to steer it in a direction. 
Nothing a few minutes of Hogan footage can’t solve 
, but still strange to see how our minds process (both good and bad) visual information…
I like this one, RR. I’m not sure I’d want to be the pitcher, but I like it. This is the kind of thing that I reckon would bring a natural action to the fore. What I think would happen from my experience with motion sports, and maybe it’s a back door route to what you mentioned, is that the awareness would be much more focused in the hands, arms, and clubhead. Since the ball is moving and since you are also moving, the focus is very much on coordination and I think in those circumstances we’re inclined to utilize our most coordination option. Plus the fact that we’re holding the club in our hands. Because of this, and this is the backdoor route to your point, we don’t let them get to far off our bodies. I’m going to ramble off in thoughts here because I’m starting to sense some options… in hurling, it’s a big field and you have to hit the ball far and in the air- and they’re incredibly accurate with it too. That’s much more of snapping pop strike with lots of lag and feel for the stick. In field Hockey(and it would be cool to get some Hockey thoughts from those who know it well- there is someone here but my mind has blanked who it is right now) the ball is played on the ground predominantly, and with a push/shove/scrape action where the ball travels on the stick for quite a while as it’s struck. Kind of like that push/shove putting thought that was being discussed a while back. I imagine this has some holding the flex through impact similarities. Even when Hockey players wind up to pop one, they keep the stick very much within their elbows it seems, with not a whole lot of lag. This probably has to do with having the hands apart during the motion. In hurling they start apart but the slide together during acceleration. I think I have some photos of both that might show what I’m saying.
Anyway, I reckon golf is halfway between or somewhere between. IMO arm and hand coordination along with club face awareness is/are really underappreciated things. It sounds like your rolling ball drill would be great for encouraging that back into a motion, kind of like the walking rapid fire drill I mentioned. One of the things that I liked about TGM, or at least a version of it, was hands controlled pivot. What I took from that was ‘hands educated pivot’- to ask your hands with their awareness of the face to make their way to an impact position and see how you need to move your body for that to happen- then add speed and power to that framework. Much like the way you’d stretch across a table to grab the salt- your body is facilitating the move but also powering it and making it happen. It goes back to this stuff we’ve been discussing lately- it’s crazy stuff, chickens and eggs. Though I don’t rule out hands controlled pivot either if that gets it done for you- it worked for Sam Snead. It’s messy as general rule though, because for most people it doesn’t get it done. Any thoughts on that stuff?
I found a couple of photos… the balls are at different levels but the gist is there still…
Here are some (Field Hockey) examples of hitting a moving ball .
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uoWvI9hS84[/youtube]
Notice the short backswing (because the ball is moving it’s easier to time the moment of impact.)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w5KcqDoYNo[/youtube]
Start this vid at 2m29s for some nice trevinoesque action 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b3GAn6GPus[/youtube]
Things to notice here are the gripping down (in motion) on the stick and the bent left arm. Makes it easier to measure of the distance to the shot.
All in all, I think our nervous system kicks in when hitting a ball that’s in motion.
Field hockeyers prefer hitting a rolling ball over a static one because ball contact is often much better.
For golf, maybe even tricking your mind/body into thinking the ball is moving can help?
Great videos and pictures… Having seen these, it’s hard for me to imagine that a being a field hockey player, or a hurler, wouldn’t lead to some fine powerful ballstriking. They seem to harness everything into the motion. That right foot action in the hockey video makes me think of an extreme Greg Norman.
In the hurling picture, I can’t help but notice how wide open the "clubface " is, behind the player in the yellow shirt, and the shaft on plane with the right forearm. The crossed hands grip forces tremendous retention of the angle. Do all hurlers use this grip?
RR, it’d be interesting to get a field hockey or hurling team and take them to the range and let them have at it.
Try several variations, still ball/moving ball. You could be the pitcher, or, another thought, they seem to be ok with the ball rolling in the direction of the target…so that could be an alternative drill…roll the ball in from behind down the target line. Might even experiment from several angles of approach…such using the 4:30 line in either direction. Maybe design an inclined plane ball feeder for the purpose, and in your case, disperse some cheese in the ball line-up for motivation and reward.