Science Validates Erickson

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
449

Even if it is in massive lead deflection do you think it means you are not able to apply a holding shaft flex force through and beyond contact?

I think you are able to. Shaft can look like deformed backwards bending snake shaped spaghetti and you can apply force and stress the shaft both at the clubhead (via hitting) and at the grip, via the pivot being aggressive.

Sensors saying otherwise, summed negative force, is not indicative of the golfers intent and application. That’s just measuring the vapour trail.

What needs to be measured needs to be in conjunction with the golfers intention and sense of achieving it, correlated with the desired outcome.

The intention and the application and the result is what is important. Lots of people measuring or observing the just effects and not the cause. A true experiment is for your ‘scientist’ observers to get inside the swing and show a swing with and without holding shaft flex intent (via orbit pull and hitting and in the other, via passive swinging).

Then you can establish a baseline for making judgments about whatever shows up visually or on whichever sensor system you choose.

Then you can talk about the differences, then you can make suppositions about what the hands are doing for example in terms of applying force to the club.

Unless you get inside the swing you’re just hypothesising and not running the experiment.

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450

Yes, it’s a good intent so that you can get forward club ‘lean’ and a descending angle of attack, especially for iron shots. Any actual acceleration of the club through impact will not make any meaningful difference to the clubhead speed or the dispersion of the ball for off-centre strikes.

So, it’s good golf instruction because it also prevents the golfer hitting ‘at’ the ball instead of through it. If your mindset is to hit through the ball to target, then you’re less likely to ‘quit’ on the shot.

451

No need to bring other discussion points into view. We’re not talking about GEARS, not talking about lead deflection, not talking about anything other than your contention that hand speed can only slow down past a certain point leading into the strike. I don’t disagree with that contention, and I know precisely where that point in time is, and why, but that is a different downswing stroke altogether from several shaft options available to us.

If you knew anything about Joe Norwood you would understand why the question about shaft movement was relevant as just one option.

But please keep circling your clubhead out, or reeling out, around your hands, not me, I strike from inside.

452

Do you mean like this?

453

I find it comical and telling that that was the 444th post. Hogan said “reverse everything”…that’s what we do here.

Reverse your graph and you’ll see “the secret”.

Lag has shown you so many times now that it’s getting old. I showed it on a shot I hit while playing a golf course, others have shown you greats doing it.

Looks like GEARS can’t tell us what to “feel” or what “intent” to have. We have no use for it…

I guess my question for you guys, what are you going to do when you GEARS prints out all your data?

Let me guess, make drills to mimmick the action? LIKE EVERY OTHER TEACHER?

Lag has already done this…why do you want to do it too? Sorry you showed up late to the party…but it’s been done. Move on, find something that you can actually teach beyond “paint by number”.

We’re working with Picasso over here…go ahead call me a fan boy, but I have people watch me on the range that I don’t even know. When I play public golf people always comment on the consistency of my strike (even on bad days). That’s why we stick to ABS…we all have the experience to know everything else is band aids and peroxide.

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454

I too love all of the “science” bandied about as if there were absolutes. Absolutes in the sense of nothing left for “science” to discover. All I care about is a repeatable straight ball flight.

455

@Fore_Thirty

So I’m looking really close…the grip and the shaft…just prior to impact has too much distortion to be sure. If you measure centers, and edges though, It is obviously being pressured and it is NOT in lead deflection. I mean we are talking mm’s again…on GEARS, maybe it is? But in 2D, with distortion…naked eye…I don’t see it.

Past impact the shaft and grip have moved significantly towards the target, with no roll of the wrists. That’s a straight line relationship…that is no doubt, post impact acceleration of the ENTIRE CLUB! Important point to make, because notice the head of the club is now pointed at the ground post impact. I’d say his hands have probably moved an inch, and the ball only 2 to 3.

NO WAY THAT HAPPENS without PIA.

@lagpressure, I took some front caddy view shots that show it almost to P4 with my Murfield 5i, I’m sure your driver would show it. For some reason there is less distortion. I could care less, I’m a lifer…but if you’re bored. :man_facepalming:

457

You obviously don’t understand those graphs. The grip end is in lagging bend, like your ABS people think they feel is happening, but the clubhead end of the shaft moves into forward bend.

The graphs were produced by Dr Steven Nesbit (another world-renowned biomechanics expert). It was used by Mike Jacobs and Brian Manzella to create and sell their idea of lagging shaft bend at the grip end at/through impact (ie. as per your ABS technique).

Isn’t this video similar to what ABS advocates (ie. that your torso pivot creates this forward force at the grip through impact)?

458

So you quote me from a discussion between me and 4:30 and send it to another member here, for what purpose is anyone’s guest but I’m not even opening your video link, I have nothing to discuss, or offer, with you or Lord Jeff about anything golf dynamics- 2 peas in an old pod. :rofl:

edit: I see you’ve edited your post.

459

No, not addressing what we are doing at all. Not one mention of adding acceleration with forearm rotation from P3 into impact.

In the old days… .it was simply called “the late hit”.
It was not called the late release… which is the swinger stuff they are talking about here by moving the “aiming point” past the ball. NO!

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460

It was in reply to 72holeouts last post (which I assume was in response to those shaft bend graphs I posted).

But I see your additional remarks are just as childish as some other ABS posters.

461

200ss

462

‘Late hit’

That’s one of the best thoughts ever.

463

Right on cue as per normal.

464

Wanted to try linking a private video from my stash site and now seems like a good time to try. I think Elk might be working off Abe Mitchell ideas here too.

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465

I have wrongly accused John Erickson of being a charlatan because he claimed that he can “hold shaft flex” throughout the downswing into the early followthrough, but I have never seen him accomplish that goal in a full golf swing action.

Here are capture images from his full driver golf swing action where he tried to swing like Hogan.

= First set of capture images.

EricksonLikeHogan
EricksonLikeHogan825×211 62.9 KB

You can see that he is “holding shaft flex” at P5.2 (image 1) and at P5.5 (image 2) but his peripheral clubshaft is bent forward at P6.2 which means that he cannot be “holding shaft flex” during his later downswing. The clubshaft has also bypassed his lead arm between P7 (image 4) and P7.4 (image 5) which means that he cannot be “holding shaft flex” in his early followthrough.

Until now, I have only seen him “hold shaft flex” in his later downswing/early followthrough when he uses an artificially shortened backswing action involving minimal clubhead lag at the shortened P4 position.

However, his latest video - https://youtu.be/f2tb4ltFQEI - shows him seemingly “holding shaft flex” during his later downswing/early followthrough when performing a full golf swing action.

Here are capture images from the video.

= Second set of capture images.

EricksonHoldingShaftFlexFive
EricksonHoldingShaftFlexFive825×209 53 KB

Image 1 (nearing P6) shows that his peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards and he is very likely “holding shaft flex” at the this time point in the mid-downswing. I have not presented any capture images of his P4 => P5.2 time period, but if you look at his video you will see that he has minimal backwards bending of the clubshaft during his early downswing. That would suggest that JE is not accelerating his lead hand between P4 => P5.2 (like most pro golfers who are TGM swingers and as was also seen in that first set of capture images ) and that he is only earnestly starting to accelerate his lead arm motion starting between P5.5 => P6.

Note that his peripheral clubshaft is still bent backwards at P6.2 (image 2) which is very different to his P6.2 scenario in that first set of capture images and I can easily accept that he is “holding shaft flex” at his P6.2 position. I can even accept that he is still “holding shaft flex” at P6.5 (image 3) and at P6.9 (image 4) even though there may be minimal forwards bend of his peripheral clubshaft, which is likely due to the club releasing phenomenon (release of PA#2) which is happening in his later downswing. The amount of fowards bend of the peripheral clubshaft is very small between P6.5 => P7 and I can readily accept his claim that he is using a “holding shaft flex” technique at the level of the club handle in this particular full golf swing action.

Image 5 is at P7.3. Note that the clubshaft has not bypassed his lead arm and note that the peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards. Both of those facts are compatible with JE’s claim that he is “holding shaft flex” during his early followthrough. JE also claims that he is accelerating his lead hand throughout his later downswing and through impact when performing his “holding shaft flex” technique, but that fact cannot be confirmed by viewing these capture images. JE should really be willing to have a GEARS evaluation because it may indeed show that his claims of not decelerating his lead hand motion between P5.5 => P7 (as seen in most pro golfers who use a TGM swinging technique) is true. Even if a GEARS evaluation does not show that he is actually accelerating his lead hand motion through impact, it would be amazing to learn that he can avoid lead hand deceleration happening between P5.5 => P7. JE states that there would be travel expenses involved in having a free GEARS evaluation performed by Eric Barzewski in Pennsylvania, but he could crowd-fund his travel expenses. I would be willing to donate $20 to any crown-funding method of paying for his travel expenses, and I am sure that many other people would also contribute enough to totally fund all of his travel expenses.

I would also like to see JE being scientifically evaluated using an instrumented grip handle combined with pressure sensors being present at PP#1 (located over his lead thumb’s base) and on the aft side of the club handle at PP#3. That could possibly confirm JE’s assertion that he is applying a positive push-pressure with his trail hand against the aft side of the club handle and at PP#1 during his later downswing and early followthrough. That “fact” would really turn the golf instructional world upside-down and create a furor because many golf instructors claim that it does not ever happen in a professional quality type of full golf swing action.

Jeff.

466

There is absolutely “shaft flex holding force” being applied during the golf swing and the intent to apply it is absolutely there. I’VE BEEN SAYING THAT THE WHOLE DISCUSSION.

You can apply positive alpha force, negative alpha force, positive beta force, negative beta force, positive gamma force, negative gamma force, positive alpha torque, negative alpha torque, positive beta torque, negative beta torque, positive gamma torque, and negative gamma torque and then you have to deal with the angular response you create. The sum of all of your forces and torques added together create a net force on the club.

I’m simply saying that in a real golf swing the clubhead is traveling too fast and the CoM of out of line with the net force and seeking to line up. The strength of the golfer does not allow a human being to keep up and it kicks the shaft into lead deflection in ALL measured swings.

I AGREE WITH YOU that this isn’t important. Nobody is saying that you teach with information about shaft flex. Golf drills, feels, intents, sensations, or whatever else do not have to line up with reality and rarely do. Tiger and Butch did a famous episode on the golf channel where they discussed making a backswing, pausing at the top, getting the clubhead well outside the hands on the downswing, and “letting my arms get past my body before I let my body go”. He literally felt impact with his hands and arms while his pocket was turned to its top of backswing location. Did that really happen in a swing? No. But it’s what he needed to accomplish the arm swing/pivot connection he and Butch were striving for at the time.

467

It is impossible to tell on video (unless you have shivering like a Phantom) or on 2D. I’ve been saying that. John has a good camera. It’s good quality video, but deflection is measured in millimeters. The totality of the club relationship is forward leaning, but the shaft is kicking into lead deflection at the kick point as the CoM of the clubhead is pulling forward seeking an in line condition. And there’s also droop that is occurring that distorts in 2D.

You asked someone else I think “what do we do with this information” we get on GEARS? Well, often nothing. What can you really do with information about millimeter measurements of shaft deflection you can’t avoid occurring in hundreds of thousandths of a second of time? But what I would quit doing is making claims that I do something I don’t do. I would maybe say I work toward something or have an intent to do something or do a drill to learn to feel of something, but I wouldn’t say I do it.

But what you can do is hit a ball and look at your swing. You can then change an intent or a feel by X amount on the next ball and see if you’ve changed whatever piece you’re trying to change. You can learn how your feel and real connect and how much exaggeration your intents and feels need to be to make any change whatsoever. Changing a golf swing is hard. Having a golf swing look different to the eye is hard.

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468

Giving in, or giving up, at the moment the shaft seeks inline is precisely what the greats wanted to avoid and had ways to harness the natural- which was, and still is, using the ground to play out of line. Far be it from me though to nurse feed you though the process, but it doesn’t take pure strength necessarily but it helps. It takes knowledge knowing how it’s sequenced and working at it until you see for yourself how out of line routing works.

It’s pretty cool. :sunglasses:

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469

I wouldn’t mind seeing you and your partner wander off toward your own site where you should be much happier I would think. There are way too many actual golf professionals associated with the ABS site that have been around the corner a few times and understand how ABS works and plays.

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