Jeff, at first it was “Holding shaft flex into impact is impossible!”
Now we have shown it is possible… clearly… no argument.
The next argument was:
You can’t have a ball…
So that was disproved.
Next argument:
The backswing has to be some specific length…
The transition must have some specific angle in relation to the left arm provided by either a cocking of the wrists or some degree of forearm rotation.
Jeff has been so kind as to inform us that I have never done this within the parameters of his qualifications, and neither has Hogan, Moe, Trevino, Snead or Knudson. That’s quite a scientific speculation!
That all being said,
If I knew that a swing in my backyard wearing tennis shoes on a plastic golf mat while trying to demonstrate something completely out of context would end up gaining this much attention on an unrelated topic, I might have tried to make a better swing!
I think this was from a swing I made discussing how Hogan transitioned the golf club in this very unique way. It wasn’t to demonstrate much beyond that. I did a DTL view of it to show how the shaft path works through transition and how the body needs to rotate level through the strike to keep the clubface looking at the target longer.
The Hogan method is very interesting and a very complex move to execute. I’m actually quite happy with the demonstration. It’s not my golf swing in particular, but as I said, there have been so many underwhelming attempts at explaining it… I figured I would throw my hat in the ring and give my take on it.
My prediction:
I post a video of a full swing, holding shaft flex through and beyond lowpoint without a ball, and it will just kick the can farther down the road with a new set of requests and requirements that would have Jeff and friends squirming to come up with the refute such an impossible task.
This would put me in unique historical status… as the only player in history of golf… of swinging a golf club as I would have surpassed the efforts every great striker of a golf ball in their prime… that failed to climb the mountain of impossibility that only I could do at age 58 as a washed up tour pro who nearly was cast in place of Kevin Costner in “Tin Cup”. Call the Guinness Book of World Records when I do this… and start building an appropriate monument that could stand outside of the gates of Golf’s Hall of Fame to honor this monumental human feat of miraculous accomplishment.
We do have Johnny Miller claiming he was measured where his club head was moving faster post-impact that it was pre-impact. Never hear Jeffy admitting that claim.
If you do it without a ball, then the comeback will be along the lines of…you could never play with that kind of swing because putting a ball in the way would subconsciously cause you to flip your hands at it and release any stored shaft flex. Bigger words would be chosen, but ‘subconsciously’ is pretty good for me. Pie charts and flowcharts would be used to confuse us. You would then be required to film yourself playing a round of golf with this mystery golf swing, alternating between using a ball and no ball. Any swing that does not hold shaft flex (including putts) within those 18 holes will prove your theories wrong. You must also shoot at least 7 under
More importantly, you say you were nearly cast in place of Kevin Costner…can I get an autograph?
You wrote-: “I post a video of a full swing, holding shaft flex through and beyond lowpoint without a ball, and it will just kick the can farther down the road with a new set of requests and requirements that would have Jeff and friends squirming to come up with the refute such an impossible task.”
Ridiculous excuse!
You are obviously avoiding the task of producing a video showing that you can “hold shaft flex” throughout the early followthrough where the clubshaft does not bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) and where the peripheral clubshaft is bent back (in the absence of ball collision) - when performing a full golf swing action.
I have for years been intrigued by your “holding shaft flex” technique and I simply wanted to know how it worked from a biomechanical/mechanical perspective. I never previously questioned the fact that it was possible to “hold shaft flex” through impact into the early followthrough by accelerating the lead arm/hand motion through impact. However, now that you rejuvenated your ABS forum and now that you have posted new videos of your full golf swing action, I can see no evidence that you are “holding shaft flex” through impact into the early followthrough. Also, the remarkable extent of your defensive and obfuscating behaviour (eg. posting a ludicrous video showing that you can “hold shaft flex” into the early followthrough while maintaining a firmly structured bent wrist) is clearly demonstrating that your “holding shaft flex” technique claims have no merit in the “real” world of golf instruction. You have an offer of a free GEARS evaluation which would show whether you can accelerate your lead hand/clubhead through impact while maintaining a peripheral clubshaft that is bent back, but you are very unlikely to ever accept that free offer. I used to admire your opinions on the “holding shaft flex” technique and I was extremely curious about its inner workings, but I now think that you are actually a charlatan who is divorced from reality.
Yet Tiger is well regarded, by basically the entire living hall of fame, as the best iron player who has ever lived. Without fail if you ask any Tour player who’s ever seen him hit balls or play they will say that they heard and saw a different quality to his strikes. And it’s backed up with states. He flat out used both power and control to dominate courses and professional golf.
I think you remember 80’s-90’s golf how you want to remember it. I think if they had Shotlink data from back then it would be no better than today as far as fairways hit, GIR, proximity, etc. I watched the Snead-Nicklaus Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf match last night and I saw plenty of snap hooks and shots flared out to the right. I also saw shag carpet greens and bump and runs with 9 irons that looked like they were chipping across velcro.
I’m not doubting your ballstriking skill or the ballstriking skill of players in past eras. Good golf is good golf, but the Tour pro who hits every fairway and every green and never misses a green and has absolute control all the time is as big of a myth as the world class ball striker 12 handicap who is only a 12 because of his short game. It’s simply nonsense and you aren’t remembering it for what it was.
Case isn’t closed. The club was in lead deflection pre impact, the collision with the ball happened, and that force slowed the clubhead down and kicked it back into lag. Like every single other golf shot ever hit.
Dude, anyone can use a shortened swing a hold shaft flex. I can do it easily…Take a swing where the club shaft is parallel to the ground, load the shaft, and drive it through with a massive amount of linear force across the shaft. Who cares? That isn’t a swing. In a real golf swing you do not deliver pure linear force across the shaft. You have longitudinal force along the shaft, some force across the shaft, some torque in the alpha and beta shaft planes, and you are constantly bending your hand path. The two things are completely irrelevant to each other because the example where holding shaft flex is possible ISN’T A GOLF SWING.
Not sure which of my statements you are replying to… I said that Lag’s short swing without a ball is a better argument than a photo post impact with a ball, bc the impact deflects the shaft backwards and is irrelevant to the conversation. Make sense?
Jeff, for some reason, then felt a need to correct me and say it’s actually a worse argument. That doesn’t make much sense and was not tactful, so I sarcastically responded and said that the post impact photo was then sufficient to close the case.
I never actually claimed Lag could or couldn’t hold shaft flex in a ‘full swing’, except in jest. Until ‘full swing’ is well defined and Lag spends time on a very precise machine, we’ll never know. I also don’t really care that much either way…
I motion we close the debate until someone is willing to define concisely what is a full swing and produce evidence one way or the other. Can I get a second on that??
I don’t think either is a good argument. A short swing without a ball isn’t a real golf swing because the forces aren’t the same. You can’t drive a club with linear force and then claim it resembles a swing in which the clubhead moves outside the hand path and the hand path bends and curves inward and upward. And a post impact swing with a ball is irrelevant because the ball kicks the shaft back into lag. I want to see a full golf swing, immediately pre impact into impact, with a lagging clubhead. And with a measuring device that is accurate because, frankly, video isn’t.
With that said here are still from a Dustin Johnson swing. The shaft is doing what shafts do. It is in lead deflection, it hits the ball, it goes into lag, it hits the ground, it goes into more lag, then it rebounds and goes back into lead. It’s not complicated.
And, to answer your question, I think a “full swing” is simply a regular swing that would be used for a full golf shot. That’s what ABS is teaching right? The goal is to make regular, full golf swings that would, for example, hit a tee shot on a golf course and hold shaft flex into and through impact with a frozen right arm and accelerating hands…right? So do it with a full golf swing intended to hit a full golf shot. Simple I think. My contention is that it cannot be done by a human due to multiple factors and, furthermore, that it would not produce useable golf shots even if it could be done.
There is certainly an orbit pull. Not sure how you’re pulling up and back against the club though while simultaneously continuing to accelerate the hands radially and putting a linear force against the clubshaft or continuing to accelerate the hands…makes zero sense. And you have no clue what you’re talking about.
I really could care less what the feeling is called, or what it technically is from a physics or engineering standpoint. What I do care about is replicating the pressures I feel in my hands and body at a specific moment in time that great ball strikers try and pass along. In the less than 30 days that I’ve been an ABS student, my understanding has of why certain shots occur from a movement standpoint has been explained, and I’m playing better. My index is dropping, and I’m already a 2…
What I find ridiculous is folks showing up here that want to debate the nomenclature used to describe movements or that certain actions are impossible. If you disbelieve then why expend the energy? Do you think that your going to nullify my personal results? BTW, I don’t care about any answer that attempts to explain how you’re helping or justify being a bore.
For the hundredth time, this discussion isn’t about instruction, feels, intentions, or drills or whether or not they’re helpful or whether or not people improve. This thread is literally about the science of the golf swing…in the title of the thread. This is a discussion about what really happens in the golf swing.
Saying something is happening that isn’t happening when we know, with empirical evidence and data what the facts are, doesn’t help anyone’s case. Why is it so hard to just acknowledge that what someone may feel or intend to do isn’t reality? That feels and exaggerations and intents that don’t match up with reality are all part of golf? That maybe shaft flex isn’t held to and through impact? Just acknowledge it and move on or get on GEARS and prove what you’re claiming. It’s simple.
I just wanted a session from the hot head doctor and maybe a donut in the RV.
