Randolph and I had this very discussion a few days ago when I visited him in Palm Springs. Balance is an involuntary action.
When you look at Hogan, he is certainly shifting his balance centers… but you have to understand that you simply can’t expect any astonishing results from “trying” to do a lateral hip slide left, with the hips continuing to close slightly in doing so, without fully integrating other pieces of the puzzle, both pre and post impact. There are so many things people will overlook. For instance, the backswing tempo would affect this to a significant degree… because the faster your backswing, the more effort and force it will take to change the direction of the golf club. You would have to factor in the length and weight of the club, the lie angle, forearm rotation, even spikes in the shoes. How late or early the hands load… and on and on. Forearm strength and post impact pivot thrust all would be factors. How about stance width? It gets very complicated.
People have asked me why I don’t particularly teach that move? Because there is a lot more to it than people think.
I think there is a youtube pro who wrote a book about it, and certainly does it nicely in his vids… but I would guess he still is a far cry from mastering the level of ball striking Hogan attained. I knew a couple guys on tour who hit it like garbage when they were working on that because they didn’t have all the other necessary elements in place to make it work properly.
What if you do that then pivot stall? Or throw the arms off the body post impact? Or try to do that with a narrow stance?
DISASTER!
I have seen Philly Mac teach a version of this move . . . . teaches people to “go down into their left knee and ankle” and then try to “bounce the clubshaft off the tip of their right shoulder” . . . . in the video I saw he was teaching it to this gooney fat dude . . . who knows?
So it’s kinda like into the left knee/ankle adding flexion at the waist kinda counter fall type deal as you feel like you bounce the shaft off your right shoulder adding some flexion to the right elbow . . . you can see it sort of from that posterior view of hogan in this one . . .
IN this particular sergio swing he doesn’t go forward with his hips much AT ALL . . . looks like to me EVERYTHING goes down and forward with Hogan? Hogan’s right leg has less flexion and is stretched out/leaning more toward the target than El Nino? They both do that drop it to the tip of the right shoulder deal though . . . and both get it around the corner . . . I see sergio more “throwy” with the right wrist than Hogan lots of times though?
I agree. I was more focusing on the right shoulder itself as opposed to their overall similarities. I would see Sergio more in line with the Snead style vertical drop, and interestingly, I see that as much more common in modern swings than the old ones. It’s something I was talking about on another thread. DL3, Kenny Perry, even Bubba Watson, all do similar things. They do go forward and down, but not nearly as obviously as Hogan and some of the older guys. I also agree that Sergio is throwier past impact with the right wrist, and I see that as linked to the working of the right leg, and that push/tilt away he does through impact. When Hogan did get into his left leg I think he was just ripping out of it. I see him as backhander in tennis terms, as opposed to a forehander. It was a different game back then in terms of what you had to do with the ball. Most of those guys had a fair amount of experience playing the game off hardpan and crappy lies, and if you didn’t strike the ball you weren’t going to do much. This is linked, imo, to the flat lie and swing idea, the whole game was played closer to the ground. Modern equipment and swings have evolved in large part to accommodate hitting it high off relatively fluffy, soft fairways. It’s just a different game. If the green is hard the only way to stop it is with spin, it can be as high is wants but it wont matter if it doesn’t have backspin. Spin hurts a good player in the modern game. I’m going off on a tangent here but I see it as related to that Hogan style downward lean in, that was about ball contact being a priority. When you have 3 inch tees, about 1/3 of an inch of air under your ball on the fairway, with a soft green at the end of it, hitting down on it is not the name of the game. But people confuse down on it with steep, and that gets them in trouble… tangents…
I agree Bom…
Hogan came from Texas hardpan, Snead from Virginia and grew up on softer turf. Different swings evolved. The modern game has most people way too spoiled and is not necessarily making better golfers because of perfect conditions, especially on tour. I don’t think a Trevino or Hogan are not going to have trouble going from a bad lie public course to one with perfect fairways, but a player who can only hit off perfect lies is going to have a rude awakening going back to more challenging conditions. This is really true with putting also.
A good golfer can play off anything. You are not doing yourself any favors in developing your game if you are never exposed to bad lies.
Moe was a picker, but he could dig one out of a divot with ease. When he hit balls, he did not rake a ball over and primp it up on a piece of turf.
Personally I find the game much more interesting playing less that perfect conditions. Some weeks on tour the players would be complaining, and that was great because half the field was basically cooked before they teed off.
I think this is terrible advice for hitters because doing so increases the lag angle on the downswing, which must match your ability to handle those angles. Lag is created by pressure, not manipulation. It’s a big mistake and one of the greatest misunderstandings that result from trying to copy positions.
Students here learn to increase their lag by what they do later in the swing. The club will work into such “positions” only when it is ready to… not before.
For swingers doing this… it’s just as bad because now they are increasing their timing element, and making golf even more difficult.
If you look at Moe, he didn’t have a “super duper” lag angle because he simply loaded into his wrists what they could handle and worked the shaft on a shoulder plane, so there was no way he was going to get as deep at P3 as Hogan who was working into a chi plane.
Just to clarify, I copied and pasted that quote into my reply and ‘agreed’ with it without realizing this was in there… I don’t ‘agree’ with this, in fact I’ve never heard of it before It sounds scary to me.
Very interesting, I hadn’t thought of Snead in that way… makes a lot of sense.
I came to the US hitting it low and hard and spent the first 4 months 20-25 feet short of every pin. I made the mistake of trying to learn how to hit it high thinking that this would help. It didn’t, and after about a year it dawned on me one day that I couldn’t hit my punch shot any more, and that had been a shot that I didn’t even have to think about with any iron. I could still play but something was lost in that. I’m starting to feel that shot come back to me, and I like it!
OK! Now we’re gettin’ somewhere . . . . I see a lot of folks on the internet and elsewhere (me included) trying to explain and incorporate various Hogan moves to Hoganize their golf swing . . . Sooooooooo . . . . not putting words in your mouth but to summarize . . . . just because Hogan did it (or something like Mac was trying to teach) don’t me WE HAVE TO? Fair? I was watching this less and this poor fat dude (my build sorta) was trying to hit these positions and he couldn’t “get it right” for Mac . . . Mac kept pounding on this lump for not “being flexible enough.” I kept thinking . . . good gravy there are more cats like this than not . . . . are we husky sized chunky but fonky types doomed not to have a dynamic golf swing??? . . .
So with this particular Hogan start down move however people want to interpret it . . . you are saying “forget about it” . . . to complicated. Sounds reasonable to me . . . . I think it looks sexy as heck though . . . . but hey you can’t polish a turd so I can move on?
Hey IOZ…if you have time and just for fun, do you think you could take those 3 Hogan photos…then superimpose the 3 shadows on the ground on top of one another to see how they are similar of different. Rats do a lot of work in the dark, so shadows catch our interest. RR
RR
You come up with some of the weirdest ideas ever but a fun progression along the journey just the same…whether it means anything or not…it would be pretty cool to think along RR’s perspective sometimes.
Bom, this is right up your alley too…with some of your computer graphics and work you have come up with
It’s just something the old rat eye picked up on. Assuming the sun didn’t change position radically at the time the photo’s were taken…how is it that the right arm can assume 3 different orientations yet retain what appears to be the same shadow. Just thought it would be fun to look at.
It wasn’t my idea…I stole it from Joe Norwood who said take advantage of the worlds best and most accurate camera…one’s shadow…it and the ball don’t lie
Better yet, my nephew is a graduate of the Columbus School of Design, and is now a professional toy sculptor. He knows a bunch about shadowing…I’m going to ask him if I get a chance. Could be interesting. RR
Yeah, I understand the concept alright, I’d just never heard it put like that. It really hits home to the value of, and difference between, what I’d see as clubhead speed and clubhead strength. If you were going to throw the club as far as you could with no need to brace it for an impact along the way, then go for that R shoulder image you mentioned. But speed isn’t everything by a long shot, and people don’t get that. The clubhead exists for a reason. It’s important for F1 cars to go fast, but there’s a time and a place for the speed. Having it at the wrong time and the wrong place will find it sitting in some gravel pit spinning it’s wheels.
Good eyes RR , it’s funny , and scary that I had never noticed the shadow. Great work IOZ with the stop action film.
Given the proximity of Hogan’s shadow to the ball, it’s hard to believe that his positioning is an accident. If you look closely you can see the shadow of the shaft move, and just post impact, the divot looks like it’s coming off his neck shadow.
You have to wonder…was Hogan using this Norwood “camera”, how did he use it, did he get it from Norwood, and what else did he get?
It sounds scary to me.
RR
but a fun progression along the journey just the same…whether it means anything or not…it would be pretty cool to think along RR’s perspective sometimes.
RR
, it’s funny , and scary that I had never noticed the shadow. Great work IOZ with the stop action film.