Possible Solution to 3-Wood Problem

Equipment
21

I didn’t try for any big tournaments because I moved at the end of April, got a new job and want to get more thru the modules (I’m only in M3) and then start focusing on equipment (although I’ll most likely game some vintage Hogan blades). I’ll also need to lose some weight and get in better shape. A previous health problem helped cause a good 35 pound weight gain and endurance becomes an issue, especially since I’m not used to the Florida heat and walking in it. I’m confident I’ll find a driver I can hit much further and just as straight. My current driver was fitted for me with my old swing. Now I still hit it straight, but it gets a ton of spin and the landing angle of the ball is very steep so it doesn’t roll anywhere. I just haven’t switched because I want to get my swing squared away.

But don’t get me wrong, length is a big factor in scoring. I played with a jr. golfer this past week. I played with him before and I shot 68 and he shot 78. But on Monday we played together and he shot 69 and could’ve been a 66 if he had a brain out on the course. And if he could’ve hit his irons well, it could’ve been even lower. I easily hit my 6-iron better than he can hit a 9-iron. But, he’s got 40 yards over me off the tee and plays the course like a par-70 compared to me playing it like a par-72. I shot 76 and hit 12 greens. He shoots 69 hitting 11 greens. Plus, while not mis-hitting shots is great, if your face angle is off, your shots are going to be off, no matter how much you flush it.

3JACK

22

Just to interject a bit of clarity here about clubs…

Swingers and hitters have very different actions through impact… particularly dealing with torque and the effect of off centered hits.

A swinger is not using a tight grip on the club… you can look at Couples and VJ, and see their right hands at times falling off the club at impact…
As a swinger, and a former one here, I know all too well the downside of swinging.

As a swinger, you have to strike the ball center or the clubhead is going to twist in your hands on off centered hits…which can result in horrific golf shots. The guys that are really benefiting the most from the modern gear are in fact swingers, more so than hitters.

These bigger heads are allowing swingers to get away with off centered hits much more so than in the past with smaller heads… while hitters are not benefiting as much… because their off centered hits are much more supported by acceleration and pressures…by resisting torquing of the clubhead.

Now as a hitter, you are going to be really hitting with both hands and especially the right hand, so both hands are going to be FIRMLY on the club… and accelerating. Therefore, when you hit the ball off center, the club is NOT going to twist in your hands nearly as much, because you are supplying resistance to
the twisting or torquing of the clubface. This allows much better control on the off centered strikes for hitters.

Sure, golf is a game of misses, and all the more reason why hitters are going to be more consistent ball strikers, regardless of gear… and swingers will forever be ball beaters grinding away to keep that helpless feeling of it all falling apart as distant as possible… yet ever so ominously lurking.

I am by no means saying you can’t become a great player swinging… sure… but you are going to likely have to grind thousands of balls, have a real mental edge and learn to control your body functions, breathing, heart rate, and nervousness much more than a hitter.

On a bad day, you hit it sideways… not me.

23

I’ll take that with a pinch of salt Lag.

Golfers ‘grind’ balls because thats what they love doing - just because you see it as a chore, doesn’t mean everyone else does.

In any case, whilst those ‘poor swingers’ are hitting thousands of balls what are your hitters doing? Hitting a carpet bag thousands of times!

Richie, I don’t understand how you can shoot 4 over and not miss an iron shot :confused:

24

Styles,

Point being… ball beating for a seasoned hitter is an option… not a necessity to the degree a swinger is going to need to.
Hogan was a hitter, and loved hitting balls.

As far as the bag goes, the muscles in your body actually respond much more positively to a greater resistance in training than a golf ball… it’s much more convenient for many, and more effective while making some pretty drastic swing changes.

While developing the “feels” and strength needed for hitting, the bag is a better option. It’s really nothing new, and it was heavily used by Henry Cotton in his teaching even back in the 1940’s … impact training… also in other sports like boxing and football linemen use resistance training very effectively.

However, I wish you the best in your pursuit of a much more challenging and difficult method.

25

I’ll try to give a quick run-down of shots:

#1 – short par 4, so the second shot is more or less a pitch shot. That really doesn’t count. Didn’t make birdie anyway.

#2 – Flush a 7-iron to 15 feet, just miss the putt. Make par

#3 – Well struck 3-hybrid to 40 feet. Make par

#4 – Well struck 5-iron to 25 feet, make the birdie.

#5 – Well struck PW, but misjudged the distance and went 30 feet short and made par.

#6 – long par-3. Flushed a 3-wood to 12 feet and the putt never broke and made par

#7 – Flushed a PW (par-5) on the approach. Ball never spun back which I thought it would on that green and left myself a 25 footer and 2-putted for par

#8 – Struck a 9-iron well and right at the flag, but about 2-feet from perfect and went shot. Easy up and down and made par.

#9 – Flushed another 9-iron into the flag (long par-5) and it went a bit short and 2-putted from 20 feet

So…that’s -1 for the front 9 hitting 8 out of 9 greens.

#10 – Tough uphill, sidehill lie. Hit a 8-iron well, but pushed it big time. Tough up and down and bogeyed the hole (E)

#11 – Par-5. Second shot went into a waste bunker (also hit well with the 3-wood). Hit a SW nicely out of the waste bunker, but too far and 2-putted from 30 feet.

#12 – Flushed a 4-iron right at the flag, but short. I do get up and down though.

#13 – Nice 5-iron to 30 feet. 2-putt from there.

#14 – Now that I’m something like 5 down, I decide to go for the flag. Flush a 7-iron, but pulled it a tad and it goes in the H2O. Take a double. Now I’m at +2.

#15 – Par-5 that I have to lay up on the second shot. Flush a 5-iron perfectly on the 2nd shot. Then I flush a PW right at the flag stick…but short again. 2-putt from 20 feet and make par

#16 –drive with a 3-wood found the hazard (it’s a stupid hole). Put my 7-iron on and 2-putt for bogey. Now I’m at +3

#17 – Flush a 3-iron a little right of the flag, but it is about a foot from being very good and I’m short of the green. Chip and a putt for par

#18 – Push a 4-iron from a downhill lie. Nice flop to 6-feet, miss the putt. +4 (76)

That’s how you don’t mis-hit an iron shot and shoot 76.

3JACK

26

Hey Richie how you doing?
Thanks for posting your card it seems on about 4 to 5 holes you played the wrong iron even thou you stripped em 25 ft,30 ft 40 ft, 20ft was that your intentions pins tucked? Dont know wasn’t there but was that good distance control? Seems like your ballstrikin is great but maybe some bad club selections or wrong type of shots i think you would agree that could of been a smooth 67 or 68. Thanks

27

First of all Lag, its your opinion that Hogan was a hitter. Plenty of TGM sites classify him as a swinger or spinner. Same for Moe Norman being a hitter.

Secondly, Monty is a swinger yet has probably not hit a thousand balls in his career - he notoriously hates practice. I am sure there are literally hundreds of similar examples. Some golfers enjoy the ball beating exercise some don’t. They all have good and bad spells.

I thank you for your best wishes regarding using Alex as a teacher, I certainly am happy and don’t in the slightest view it as a more challenging or difficult method. His teaching fits my profile perfectly. I know you like your martial arts analogies so in much the same way, there are certain people who prefer karate to Ju Jitsu, Judo to Tai Chi. I am sure the various sensei are happy whatever the pupil chooses and do not belittle or demean the methodology chosen especially if it differs from their own teaching. Ying and Yang and all that.

I also know all about the bag being an old invention, after all I spoke of Fred Daly going into long grass to get resistance when he swung. Pretty sure Cotton et al were hitting car tires though, just like Ben Doyle has been for years…

28

What’s a “spinner”. I’ve never seen that term on any of the sites I’ve visited.

29

You have to remember that it gets pretty breezy in Florida. Plus since I switch off an on between different sets of clubs, some go further than others.

Certainly, it was not a good day of mental management, course management and I didn’t strike the driver that well for me and I didn’t make much on the green. Theoretically I could flush every iron shot and shoot quite poorly, well over the 80’s. If you don’t control the clubface, you can hit it flush but hit it all over the lot. My dad came down to visit and we played and we hadn’t played golf with each other since I’ve been fully into Module 3 and the first comment he made was how ‘hard’ I was hitting every shot. ‘Hitting it hard’ in my dad’s golf terms is ‘hitting it flush’ in our terms since my dad is a 15 handicapper, but is a very keen observer at everything in life.

3JACK

30

Spinner and thruster are sometimes used instead of swinger and hitter.

Hogan spun his pivot.

31

Styles – To Lag’s credit he defines ‘hitter’ and ‘swinger’ much differently than Homer Kelley describes it in ‘The Golfing Machine.’ Homer states that a ‘hitter’ or a ‘swinger’ is defined SOLELY by their lag loading process. The hitter executes ‘drive loading’ (the right arm pushes the clubhead on the downswing into the ball. Similar to a boxer throwing a punch). The swinger executes ‘drag loading’ (the left arm and pivot pulls the club down like a person pulling the rope to a large, old medieval bells)

I’m sure you understand that Styles, but many posters here reading this thread do not know those TGM concepts.

Lag’s description of a hitter and swinger is different. He has the pictures showing what he calls ‘swinging left’ and ‘swinging right.’ The hitter in ABS terms ‘swings left’, the swing in ABS terms ‘swings right.’ MORAD calls ABS’ ‘swinging left’ and ‘swinging right’ as CP Release (swinging left) and CF release (swinging right).

I could go on about why I don’t believe there is a ‘pure TGM hitter’ or a ‘pure TGM swinger’ (I think all of us do our fair share of pulling then pushing in the downswing). But I’ll save that for a later time with a different thread. I will say that the ABS version of ‘hitter’ and ‘swinger is something far easier to distinguish than the rather ambiguous TGM version of hitting and swinging.

3JACK

32

and a better option would be?.. stall the pivot and throw the right arm at the ball? Disconnecting the arms from their primary motor?

I disagree.

It is not my opinion that Hogan was a hitter… it is HOGAN’S opinion that he himself was a hitter. Let us set the record straight on this.

Anyone claiming Hogan was as swinger either does not know Hogan’s ideals, nor understands TGM.

Hogan and Snead both talked about “hitting” with the hands… not the right arm. When you hit something, you drive through it… not stall and quit… like you would cracking a whip’s tip.

Spinning the pivot is also a very poor description… because that would insinuate there was an initial application of energy that is then left to simply spin out and die like a top or a coin spinning on a table. Nothing could be more opposite than what Hogan and other great hitters did. Spinning is a horrible analogy.

Hogan hit with the hands and the body… not the arms. The pivot of a hitter accelerates post impact working off opposing forces ultimately grounded in the footwork of which Homer had little or no understanding of this. You can’t get this from observation only… that would be like trying to describe colors to someone who is color blind. You really need to experience these things within the body to have any real chance at communicating what has to happen. Therefore, I am much more interested in reading a book, article or description of a golf swing sensation from a great ball striker than an armchair observer who thinks they understand how to strike a golf ball properly without being able to do so themselves.

There have been many so called scientists that have graced these pages that are 80 or 90 shooters or will not post their own action for evaluation. This most certainly shows the limitations of “scientific understanding only”. I would further argue that most don’t understand the science of it at all. I would say Mandrin is the only guy I have seen that has posted
scientific charts and diagrams that have a general correctness to them.

The TGM ideal that hitters push and swingers pull, and you can’t do both at the same time is absolute garbage. 3jack is spot on about this also.

33

I used TGM based hitting last year and overall I was happy with the success of it. But early on I toyed around on the range with it and even though I felt a thrusting of the right arm, the club had to be pulled a bit downward in the startdown. In fact, if one were to go to the top of the swing and legitimately push with the right arm/side/hand, they would be pushing the club up to the sky. I then experimented with the ‘swinger’ concept and again, you can’t adequately hit the ball buy pulling everything the entire way down IMO.

Then Brian Manzella started talking about how the research thru 6 degree 3D motion analysis machines show the golfer pulling at first and then pushing thru impact and that nobody is a ‘pure hitter’ or a ‘pure swinger.’ According to Manzella, one could ‘purely hit’ the ball, but according to Stanford Physics Professor Dr. Aaron Zick, they would only hit the ball about 55% of their full capacity. So if a golfer hits it 250 and claims they are a ‘pure hitter’, it’s simply not true because no way is their full capacity a 455 yard drive. Instead, they are pulling to some degree then pushing. I believe Zick said that a ‘pure swinger’ would be at 80% of full capacity, so again, there are no ‘pure swingers’ either. That just more or less confirmed what I had thought, but wasn’t able to articulate.

Now, I do believe the ‘concept’ of a drag loader (push the right arm) and a drive loader (pull with the left arm) does exist. I do believe there are plenty of golfers who think this way in the downswing. But again, what actually happens is different. So, how do you tell a TGM hitter vs. a TGM swinger? Do you ask the person what they feel like they are doing, even if it’s not what they are actually doing? Does not seem like very sound logic to me.

I wouldn’t say that a person who calls Hogan a ‘swinger’ by TGM standards doesn’t understand TGM. I would just say that there’s a flaw in TGM’s designation of a ‘hitter’ or a ‘swinger.’ Going back to Mac O’Grady on this. In the lesson I got from a MORAD instructor, the first thing we went over was getting rid of the right arm thrust and hitting the ball with the pivot and the body. It’s amazing how Mac and John, both schooled in TGM and then went on to do their own research on the swing, discovered a very similar concept. Although from what I’ve heard, O’Grady based his MORAD stuff mostly off of Snead. He supposedly claims it is ‘80% Snead 20% Hogan.’ Anyway, it’s my belief that there is no way to look like either of these guys with a conventional TGM ‘swinger’ or ‘hitter’ swing pattern and that the golfer needs to pivot and use their hand to hit the ball. It doesn’t mean you can’t hit the ball well with the traditional TGM hitter or swinger pattern. Hell, tons of guys do it on the PGA Tour every day.

Anyway, one of the things Lag and I have discussed is that with his pattern you can pretty much play with any type of flex of shaft you want and hit the ball quite well. With the more traditional TGM patterns, you really need to be fitted for shafts. I will say this about persimmon. It’s a GREAT way to practice to improve your swing. Every time I get out there with persimmon, it really keeps me in check as far as getting out of old bad habits and not forming new bad habits. Titanium will never do whtat. Not even close.

3JACK

34

Great discussion guys…let me take a stab at this one. Aerial view of R forearm @ P3…about 1:00 for hitter and 2:30 for dragger. However, I agree that there is always some degree of pushing and pulling in either of Homer’s concepts.

Hogan was most certainly not a swinger under TGM standards…as laying the club off to that degree is not anywhere near compatable with swinging under Homer’s plan. Although it certainly appears that Ben preferenced a CF action in the early 30’s…but it’s difficult to judge.

Wanted to chime in cuz someone wanted me to try their R-flex driver today. Put a laid-off hit on it and pushed everything right as the head just would not catch up. So had to adjust to TGM swing method to get the ball on-line.

Hey Lag…someone mentioned to Shigster about using a Tech Forum to learn how to post videos. Couldn’t find it…is that forum open to rats, or do we have to claw our way in. :laughing: RR

35

Lag
would it be easy to categorize a ‘hitter’ as more of a bent right arm player at impact and beyond until force and pivot straightens it out (at PV5)
OR
likewise a ‘swinger’ is more of a straightener of the right before or at impact??

If that is so…(this is my determining factor of it anyhow) the video below shows an unbelievable ability to keep right arm flex for as long as possible with no ‘swinging’ of the club whatsoever…in fact his elbow almost rides his belt/hip from P3 to close to P4…and shows precisely what Hogan was trying to achieve into impact and beyond

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg[/youtube]

36

Sure, that would be a tell tail sign of a hitter… because for a hitter firing actively with the hands, AND keeping the shaft on plane… you have to be pulling against CF…

If we let go of the club at impact, it is going to bounce off the ground and go off to right field. A hitter is going to resist that outward force, and use both the forearm rotation of the hands, and the pivot to essentially reroute the direction of the club so that it moves tightly around the body… and not dislocating from the body, just as in that Hogan video.

It’s not easy to do, but it can be done, and in striving to do this, you not only get a unique slingshot effect, but you put a ton of feel into your hands… and this is why it is such an effective technique, especially for low handicappers and pros, because they will harness those feelings and know what to do with them to move the ball around in their favor.

The right elbow can take on three roles from impact to P4… it can passively move out to the right, off the body in a relaxed way, essentially being pulled straight by CF… this is classic TGM swinging…

Second option, it can be driven straight actively by driving or thrusting the right arm intentionally… TGM hitting

These first two options move the shaft off plane, just as Homer talked about in TGM chapter two, and requires much more timing. The first “swinging” is the better option I believe, and is why Ben Doyle and others are still preaching that protocol.

However, there is a third option that the right elbow can remain bent, pulling or contracting against the forces of CF… and this is of course the best option because it keeps the shaft on plane, and minimizes post impact clubface closure… exactly as Hogan did, and Trevino talked about also “keeping the clubface looking at the target just a little longer”. This is the true hitting as described by the great master ball strikers. Mac I believe calls this a CP release… which is fine. Better to do the right thing, than only understand the various definitions.

Tiger’s iron game is very much classic hitter… and is why we see such exceptional ball striking from him… until he get into the longer lightweight gear where he then goes to appears to me to a TGM style hitting action driving the right arm actively at the ball, disconnecting, and hitting the driver with only about a 50% success rate. I tend to blame the gear more that I do Tiger, because his golf swing otherwise with a long iron is technically sound as a rock. Apparently no one has been able to show him how to turn his body fast enough post impact with a driver and stay connected, but I do think
he has the physicality to do it if he was instructed properly. I could show him how to do it (I think) but it would be a very expensive lesson! :sunglasses:

37

I am starting to think that its almost impossible to hit the modern driver with an ABS type hitting. I am not sure if it is the excessive volume with air drag or what but it seems you can not square the face with the torso (I can not). My driver is only 43.5 " and 400 CC in volume while my three wood is 43 inches and tiny as compared to some others. I can swing the 3 wood with my ABS swing just fine. But not the driver. With the driver you have to let go of the face with the resultant timing issues. I have another driver which is 460 CC and I can never square that one at all. You can almost feel like you are swinging one of those “fan” training aids.

38

Not impossible. But difficult. The longer the club, the tougher it is to ‘swing left’ ABS style. And with the modern driver and 3-wood, even more difficult because they are long and light. But, there’s plenty of golfers out there who can do it. Take a look at Mac O’Grady . It’s also not a coincidence in my mind that he plays with a closed stance with the driver either.

3JACK

39

I think it may still be impossible for some/most depending on their pivot range/speed. I have thought about length and it is a big factor. The difference between a wedge and 3 iron is 4 inches and we know how much harder a 3 iron is compared to a wedge. Now add 6-7 inches for the driver, make it lighter and bulkier and there you have it.

40

I think a lot of these modern drivers are 46 inches coming off the shelf? But another issue is how upright they are. Some of
these modern drivers are 62 degrees… and that is going to cause problems…

The longer the club is, the flatter it needs to sit. My persimmons I have set at 48 degrees at 43 1/2 inches. Therefore a 46 inch driver should be sitting even flatter than that.

The lightness causes an over acceleration vacuum for most… because it is simply just too easy to get the club moving quickly from the top, and few are going to have the hand speed at the bottom to keep the club accelerating… and then the pivot must really go into hyper speed post impact…

However poorly designed these behemoths are considering the basic design of the human body, I only see increasing the effectiveness of module work helping the situation not hurting it… because we are working on exactly what would need to done to handle such a club.

I’ll make it a point soon to show it can be done… maybe wearing a Lone Ranger mask. :sunglasses: