Modern Problems With A Pivot Driven Golf Swing

BINGO!! With the short Irons its more like 75 vs maybe 60. Because the apex is SO much higher now by the time they get back to the ground it’s not as bad because of gravity accelerating the descent but the lack of surface area in contact with the clubface now along with the time loss at contact makes it an even worse nightmare to keep the reigns on. Plus they’re so much higher up in the air for so long without the protection of the spin creating a decent pocket of air dispersion to keep the wind off. There used to be a series of pictures on the backs of the sleeves of Titleists when they were making the Tour Balatas, the DT’s and whatever the 2 piece rocks were at the time with little pictures of the different trajectories the different balls had. It was spot on except that there was no close up of the radical difference in the launch angles. When I get my hands on one of the sleeves I’ll post it, it was really good. (And again I warn you guys, these orbs are mine, I swear to God I’ll come and find you…)

I saw something about taking the seams and like the old black pentagons off the ‘futbols’ if that ages me enough… Not a big soccer guy myself but that’s BS for the goalies. More stupid people with more techno toys than sense I guess. I saw a FC Barcelona - Real Madrid Match when I was in Catalonia. Woah, i thought Yankees - Sox was intense. Never saw women weeping BEFORE a game even started at Fenway. Very Cool.

One of the best lessons I ever had in my life was given to me when I was like 16 by Bud McVey. I put a couple of his quotes in the Birdies file even though nobody else here knows who the hell he is. He was an amateur player about the same age as Hogan and Byron Nelson, lived in the Bay Area forever and he decided not to turn pro but played A LOT all over the place with everybody and eventually retired on the same little course I grew up on. This guy played scratch or better into his 70’s, single digit until he was 89. Try that on for size. Knew more about golf than everybody else I’ve ever met put together. I was lucky enough to be his favorite, more than anything else because I was the only kid around who would sit quiet and listen to his stories all day long. What a bunch of nutz the other kids were, and their loss for sure. I was also the only person he’d help with their game. Gave me crap about it all day long too. He said he’d help me because I needed it the most. He was right about that too.

We’re out on the range and he takes two shafts and sticks them in the ground about 5 or 6 feet DTL, about 2 feet apart. Then takes a string and ties it to both so there is line about 20 inches off the ground. I figure I have to get all the balls over the line. Nope. Every shot under the string. He starts me out with a 4 iron. OK no sweat I just hit some little punch shots. NO, Hit it hard. Hit it over that tree. There’s a oak tree about 170 out about 20 feet high. Now I don’t know what to do. He tells me, A Player does that with every shot. Make the ball stick on the face, It’ll climb up fine. Eventually after about a month I got it with the four, but figuring out how to do it with full wedges took years and starting over from scratch. Now I should probably give Bud’s definition of a Player. A Player is someone for whom 65 or better is in play every single time they put a peg in the ground. Any day, any course, any conditions, all the shots and no weaknesses. Knows the swing, knows the game, can play it and teach it.

Without any equations or huge analysis the concepts of compression and launch angle were put forth and one of the most difficult moves to make with a golf club was laid down like a gauntlet. He knew it would take years to learn how to do this and he also knew he wouldn’t be around to see the ultimate fruits of his lesson that day. But Bud was so right on the money with this principle. The premise is that launch angle has NOTHING to do with Loft. It is determined by compression, what Lag calls acceleration and I call a deep late shift of the axis of rotation and by angle of attack. When you can keep the shortest club with the slowest speed under that string by smooshing it on the face, you can play brother, believe me, you can play. That was my version of an impact bag.

To me, what you have said is very similar to what Percy Boomer advocated in his book “On Learning Golf”(1948?), and Victor East advocated in his book " Better Golf in 5 Minutes"(1956). Both seem to be trying to teach golfers not to try to get the ball up by flipping.

Boomer said imagine using a stroke simlar to what you would do if driving a wedge under a door( as opposed to driving a stake into the ground).

East advocated aquiring the feeling of what he called “The Basic Move”…which was learning to take the club “through the ball” square to the target, with the club sole grazing the ground, evenly. Start with three inches an dprogress in speed an d length of stroke. Gerry recommneded this book in one of his posts( East was the person selected by Bobby Jones to duplicate his clubs). And Gerry suggested we try sweeping a teed ball, arms in close, with a 5 iron …and observe the results.

Obviously, knowing this and DOING are two different things, it can take years to properly learn it if at all(probably not in 5 minutes). But is this concept the same as the what that man was teaching you with that string drill ?
eagle

Great stuff. Again, I completely relate to that. My whole buzz from the game is about directing the shot, I just want to know that I can start it somewhere with strength, after that it’s out of my control. I’m self taught by and large- my impact bag was a 30mph wind and rock hard fairways and greens- links golf. I can’t blame the ball on the root cause of me losing my strike, it was more from coming to the US to play college golf. I spent the first 4 months fizzing in wedge shots that landed 20-25 ft short, one hopped and stopped. I could not get it up to the hole. Landing a ball anywhere near the flag was suicide in my mind, but I persevered because I saw that as the new ‘real’ golf. Hammered away at learning the 60 degree L wedge even though it scared the shit out of me to have no face behind the ball. I still can’t use one, and luckily I gave up trying to before it really got me. Regardless, I did learn how to hit shitty wedge shots that landed at the flag and stopped- progress! Next thing I noticed I couldn’t hit punch shots anymore- what the hell was going on? That was my life blood shot in a pressure situation- gone! Then the ball came along and because I’d already done so much damage "learning’ new shots, I never thought to blame it as part of the difficulty. It’s only recently after digging in pretty deep over the last few years that I’m starting to regain my strike- it’s fun. Using persimmon has accelerated that progress a great deal. Learning to give a shit again about how my irons are built as opposed to believing that Mizuno are building the right stuff has helped tremendously. I gotta hand it to Lag and this place for that. Even looking at my Mizunos now it’s ridiculous how much mass is down on the bottom- nothing behind it. And these are top of the line ‘blades’… mutton dressed up as lamb!
I don’t know if you’ve watched that Jackie Burke Classic conversation, but you really should. He talks about that string training method and working on trajectory. A lost art it seems at this point due to the ball, but not a waste of time to try.

That JBJr article is excellent, dynamo of a man. No matter who I’ve ever had the fortune of having the opportunity to pick their brain, they’ve all been adiment about learning to manage yourself, and teaching in kind. Teach the process not the result. The UCLA Dynasty documentary still gets aired on HBO channels from time to time, I’ve watched it a couple of times in the past month and I’ve been re-reading the Woooden book too. If the Pyramid of Success and his method isn’t the Pinnacle of Athletics, I don’t know what is.

Success is peace of mind that is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you did your best to become the best you are capable of becoming.
Now this is how to tie your shoes…

How does it get better than that?

I can’t wait to get the feel back into my swing and my eye of beingable to work a ball around a golf course again. I’m more excited to play than I have been in a long time, excited enough to start working out again and work on rotation drills in the mornings. This is huge as I haven’t had any gumption for this in years. What a mess this body is. I get how hard the idea of flying it to the hole is, it’s totally wacky when you think about it. Leave it to Americans to screw up anything.

E- I’ve never heard of either of those books. I’ll make sure to find them, thank you. I’m not really sure about that teed up drill though if I do get the jist of it right. Compression drills really mean going all out with the short irons, working on angle of attack while you’re beating the snot out of the ball. Way way harder than any swing with any club on the course. I guess you could do it on a tee but then you lose the feedback of the divot patterns and risk the club getting steep. You learn to smoosh the ball by smashing it not by mini-swings. At least I do.

The compression drills also get any steering out of the swing which naturally creep in when you’re playing a lot of tournaments.

The New York Times
Teeing Up New Technology
Ball Makers Pitch to the Heavy Hitter in Every Hacker
By SETH SCHIESEL
Published: June 21, 1997

Tony M. Pisacano, an eye surgeon, looked up from the small constellation of golf balls that gleamed at him like vexing patients from a practice putting green at the Westchester Country Club in Harrison, N.Y.

‘‘Golf is like an obsession,’’ Dr. Pisacano, who has an 18 handicap, said one recent Sunday, tapping a milky Slazenger toward a nearby hole. ‘‘It would be hard to pick a number big enough that some of us wouldn’t spend if it would make us that much better.’’

The proof was barely a wedge shot away, at the club’s pro shop. The industry that made the $300 titanium driver commonplace is now trying to glamorize the once lowly golf ball, waging a war for the $1 billion market with grandiose claims of advanced technology, big-name endorsements and blatant appeals to golfers’ chronic frustration.

A recent magazine advertisement perhaps put it best. ‘‘In an effort to hit the ball longer and straighter, you’ve changed your grip, your stance, your swing, your clubs, your shoes, and for all we know, your socks,’’ it read. ‘‘Hmmm. Anything you left out?’’

But for all their marketing, the companies neglect to mention that for most golfers, it matters little what ball they play.

Peter McDonald, a golf instructor at Westchester, smiled a bit and shrugged as he tried to explain why the club’s best-selling ball is a Titleist that is covered with a soft, rubberlike substance called balata – and costs about twice as much as an average ball.

‘‘Ego has a lot to do with it, that and marketing,’’ he said. ‘‘Some guys are really bad golfers but think they’re Greg Norman so they buy balata. Our best-selling ball should be a cheap rock.’’

But cheap rocks are not very stylish in the golf world these days, especially as the game’s popularity soars. As the Professional Golf Association tour stops at the Westchester Country Club this weekend for the Buick Classic tournament, golf is riding a wave of enthusiasm. The number of golfers nationwide has risen about 24 percent since 1986, to roughly 25 million, according to the National Golf Foundation in Jupiter, Fla.

And as golfers the world over try to buy a better game, spending on golf equipment has risen even faster, roughly doubling since 1986 to around $5.5 billion.

Until recently the money flocked mostly to bigger clubs. Much as tennis racquets have come to resemble fly swatters for giants, woods and irons – and their prices – have grown steadily as manufacturers have turned to steel, titanium, tungsten, copper, beryllium and nickel (and even iron and wood) trying to create an ever-larger ‘‘sweet spot’’ on the face of the club.

Now it is the ball’s turn for a makeover. Metals that made their golfing reputations in clubs are migrating to balls, and companies are introducing new balls almost as often as Tiger Woods wins tournaments. While balls costing $18 a dozen might do just fine, many golfers are being cajoled into paying as much as $50.

‘‘What is allowing marketing people to sell more equipment if it’s not really making any difference?’’ asked Frank W. Thomas, technical director of the United States Golf Association in Far Hills, N.J., which tests and sometimes approves new balls for tournament play. ‘‘The problem is, we want to play better without the effort. We believe in magic.’’

Golf ball companies concede the importance of marketing, but they do not talk about magic. They talk about innovation.

From the turn of the century until the late 1960’s, almost all golf balls were made of a core of wound rubber thread surrounded by a soft balata cover. In 1968, Spalding Sports Worldwide, which sells more golf balls than any other company, introduced the first ‘‘two piece’’ ball to gain wide popularity, the Executive, which had a solid rubber core and a rubber-and-polyurethane cover.

Balls with wound insides and balata covers can be manipulated more deftly by good players but are not as durable and do not travel as far. And in recent years only about a quarter of the roughly 850 million golf balls sold around the world annually have used a wound core. Most wound balls are made by Titleist, a Fairhaven, Mass., unit of Fortune Brands Inc. which dominates the market for ‘‘high end’’ balls, those that sell in pro shops for roughly $25 or more a dozen.

Titleist, one of the first companies to sign Tiger Woods to an endorsement contract, has trademarked the word Elastomer to refer to the cover material for its Professional ball, the ball Woods uses.
‘‘A lot of times chemical words or technical words are talked about in marketing and nobody really knows what they’re talking about,’’ said Bill Morgan, Titleist’s vice president for golf ball research. ‘‘But it sounds high tech. There is a little deception there, really.’’

The rapid growth in sales of costly golf balls is luring the other big ball makers – Spalding, based in Chicopee, Mass., which is controlled by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Company and sells most of its balls under the Top-Flite brand; the Dunlop-Slazenger group of Britain, which also makes Maxfli balls, and Wilson, a Chicago unit of the Amer Group Ltd. of Finland.

Each company tries to convince golfers that its latest model combines the distance and durability of two-piece balls with the feel of wound balata balls.

‘‘What you’re seeing now is more emphasis on technology’’ in advertising, said Thomas G. Brown, publisher of Golf Digest magazine. ‘‘They will have actual photographs of what the core of a golf ball looks like, whereas years ago maybe the golfer wasn’t interested in that.’’

For many golf pros, the explosion of options in golf equipment has been a boon.

The Professional Golf Association of America in Palm Beach Gardens, Fla., is independent of the P.G.A. Tour and represents 23,000 people who make their living mostly at pro shops, practice ranges and country clubs. The group’s annual merchandise show in Orlando, Fla., has roughly tripled in size since 1987; it featured 1,343 exhibitors in January.

''Golf is a wonderful sport because whenever anyone sees a new product, they say, ‘Maybe that will make me a better player,’ ‘’ Jim Awtrey, the P.G.A. of America’s chief executive, said.

But Westchester Country Club employees said that until golfers can shoot less than 90 consistently – as few golfers can – it makes little difference which of the 1,709 U.S.G.A.-approved balls they use.

‘‘Most people come in and have no idea what to buy, and for them it doesn’t really matter very much,’’ said Max Goree, who works behind the counter at the pro shop. ‘‘So we’ll sell them something we’re overstocked with.’’

Joseph Teklits, an analyst for Ladenburg Thalmann & Company, put it this way: ‘‘Better golfers buy what they need. High handicappers buy what’s best promoted.’’

That may be why the two leading club manufacturers, the Calloway Golf Company and the Taylor Made Golf Company, are planning to jump into the ball market.

Calloway, which has recently dominated the golf-club market with its Big Bertha drivers, plans to introduce its ball by 1999 – a ball, said the company’s chairman, Ely Callaway, ‘‘that’s clearly superior to any others and very pleasingly different.’’

Different sells. The ball that has been perhaps the best promoted recently is Wilson’s Staff Titanium – ‘‘Golf’s First Titanium Core Ball,’’ promoted after its introduction last fall as ‘‘The Greatest Event Since That Sliced Bread Thing.’’

The core of the Staff Titanium is not solid titanium. Rather, it includes some titanium powder (Wilson would not disclose how much) to hold together the rubber and other less exotic ingredients.

Michael J. Sullivan, Spalding’s vice president for research, was adamant that ‘‘the Wilson titanium golf ball offers nothing that is in not in other golf balls.’’

‘‘They’re just capitalizing on the familiarity of titanium,’’ he said.

A few minutes later, though, Mr. Sullivan noted that Spalding had introduced a titanium ball of its own in April. The Top-Flite XL Titanium uses the metal in its cover. ‘‘It gives lower spin, so it gives longer roll,’’ Mr. Sullivan said, while conceding that ‘‘the driving force behind using titanium is consumer awareness.’’

Consumers are certainly aware. At the Roger Dunn Golf Shop in Santa Ana, Calif., Wilson’s titanium ball is the top seller.

‘‘Everybody’s been buying it,’’ said Dan Perkins, a cashier at the vast store. ‘‘I don’t know if it’s all in the head, but it seems to be working.’’ Mr. Perkins said his store was selling as many as 36 boxes of the Staff Titanium a day, at $25.99 each.

Not to be outdone, Maxfli introduced what may be the first tungsten golf ball on Tuesday.

At the U.S.G.A., whose seal of approval is almost a prerequisite for getting shelf space, Mr. Thomas is hardly wide-eyed about all the new technology. Balls have become more consistent and durable, he said, but ‘‘99 percent’’ of the time the effect on performance ‘‘is minimal, absolutely minimal.’’

The most popular marketing pitch is that a ball goes farther. But the U.S.G.A. will not approve a ball that goes farther than 296.8 yards in lab tests and has not changed that limit since 1975. That threshold was reached consistently in the late 1980’s.

‘‘There has been very little improvement in the aerodynamic performance of golf balls in the last 8, 9, 10 years.’’ Mr. Thomas said.

Professional golfers, though, are hitting the ball farther than they did in years past; Tim Finchem, the P.G.A. Tour’s commissioner, spread the credit – or the blame – among better balls, clubs, courses and athletic conditioning.

For most golfers, the experts say that a few more hours on the range might do more good than a few more dollars on the credit card.

‘‘I’ve frequently told people,’’ Mr. Thomas said, ‘‘they would be much better off spending $200 on lessons than they would spending $1,000 on equipment.’’

That was over 12 years ago. Lies, Garbage and Marketing Slogans. Every single product is made in a very effective attempt to make players worse at the game and force them into searching for the next garbage product in a search for what they just lost, which by the way will always be more expensive. The introduction of the ProV1 was the lock and the last wound ball made was the key being thrown away insuring that no one would ever be able to master the game again. You’ll notice that Greg Norman, Nick Faldo and Lee Trevino all retired right around the time the last wound ball was made.

Does Bridgestone Golf make a wound golf ball?
Bridgestone Golf does not manufacture a wound golf ball. Bridgestone Golf specializes in the production of solid construction golf balls due in large part to our belief that greater consistency in product quality and performance can be attained through the solid ball manufacturing process.

Translation: We could give a shit less what you shoot. There aren’t very many people who know what a ball is supposed to be or how to hit it. Balata balls are expensive and there’s no profit margin. Go shoot 90 and leave me the hell alone to count all my money.

Funny that there was good enough ‘consistency in product quality and performance’ for pros and amateurs to shoot 65 or better in the 1930’s.

Billy Mayfair, PGA Tour player, on today’s golf ball

Everyone is talking about testing the new driver
heads for illegal COR, etc., but I think the golf
ball is making more of a difference in the game
than anything else is. The golf ball has changed
the game more than the driver has. I play the
Titleist ProV1x ball, and it doesn’t curve as much
anymore like they used to. You just swing as hard
as you want at it and it goes straight at the flag.
Working the ball is still important on certain
shots, but it’s not as much of a must thing anymore.
One of the guys I remember who used to
work the ball the best in the world was the late
Payne Stewart. He brought the ball in high, low,
left-to-right, right-to-left, every which way possible.
That was what made him such a great player.
These days I don’t think working the ball would
help him as much, because you don’t need to
shape the ball like you used to because the ball
just flies so straight. [size=150]I think 95% of the guys on
Tour would say that the changes in the golf ball
today have made a bigger difference in the game
than anything else has
[/size].

Jim Colbert, Champions Tour player, on the impact of technology on the
Champions Tour

I don’t think technology has had an impact on the
Champions Tour as far as who wins at
Tournaments is concerned, because everybody’s
got it. They’re going to pass the money out at the
end of the Tournament whether we shoot 20
under or 20 over. [size=150]Having said that, the biggest
difference I see in technology today is the ball.
[/size]Certainly it goes farther…My drives today are a
little longer than when I was on regular
Tour…but mainly it’s the ball that doesn’t curve
as much as the older balls. Subconsciously,
though, the curve of my shots is still in there,
because at times I find it difficult to aim dead
straight. I’ve gotten so accustomed to seeing the
ball move left-to-right or right-to-left, depending
on the shot I want to hit. And the balls today
really don’t curve when you hit them solid.
I don’t think

QUESTION:
Is it still possible to get the old balata covered wound ball?
Do you still have the capability to manufacture them?

ANSWER:
We made our last balata golf balls on March 16, 2001. Since then, all of
the processing equipment has been replaced with production lines for Pro
V1 golf balls. Since the manufacturing process is completely different for
the modern balls, we no longer have any way of producing balata balls. We
were the last holdout making balata balls, but the golf world turned the
page and so did we, by necessity*.

Steve Aoyama
Golf Ball R&D
Titleist

*Greed
*Lack of Profit
*Marketability
*Not Caring About the Traditions of the Game of Golf
*Go Away and Turn the Page
*Buy this $200 Wedge that isn’t as good as one as one we made 25 years ago for $30
*Buy this $300 Putter that doesn’t make any more putts than a Bullseye we made in the 1940’s for $10
*Buy this $500 Driver that loses all your $5 ProV1x’s that don’t go where you can find them, let alone play from
*Then buy another dozen ProV1x’s for $60 that cost us $0.10 a piece to make

LCDV and others who are knowledgeable and have a preference:

So a question…which ball(s), if any, that you can buy now do you like, and not like? Can you give us a list?..THIS…NOT THIS. Feel free to give the pros and cons if desired.

Maybe our group, and those like us, can show someone it matters, and get things going in the right direction again.

         This                  Not This

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eagle

Sounds like it is not quite the same…because of the speed or acceleration…which seems critical in your example. East has a picture of himself, with a lofted club, hitting a ball over a book placed a couple of feet in front of him…in his living room. East’s critical elements seem to be path and shallow angle of approach with the sole level… but not speed or acceleration.

In the string drill, are you moving the ball back, or using a lot of shaft lean to get the ball under the string? You mention angle of attack…does the drill promote a shallow or steep angle of attack?

You also mentioned something like " deep late shift of rotation and angle of attack " and I want to understand that better if possible.

thanks/eagle

Speaking of which, have you tried the Wilson I-Wound?

In the string drill, are you moving the ball back, or using a lot of shaft lean to get the ball under the string? You mention angle of attack…does the drill promote a shallow or steep angle of attack?

It’s all shaft lean. I was taught that there are two different ways the shaft bends or ‘loads’, for arguments sake call them the X and Y direction. If you grip a club and hold it out in front of you and cock your wrists so the clubs sets and releases up and down that’s your X. Now you bend your wrists to make the clubhead go side to side,that’s your Y. Realize though that the wrists and hands NEVER MAKE THIS MOTION IN A GOOD GOLF SWING. Your X move is setting and releasing the club within the swing, hit , move, whatever you want to call it. The Y is a Lateral Shaft Press or Load. Just like Lag teaches, the way you create aLateral Load is by waiting and waiting and dropping the club as deep as you can into the slot while straightening the right arm to maximize the X load and stored energy in the shaft.At the same time you keep the base of your rotation on the inside of the right foot. Then when you’re ready to release into the ball you reestablish the rotational base into a spot just inside the left foot. This DRAMATICALLY changes the forces being exerted on the shaft in a way that simutaneously unloads the energy in the X Load as it’s approaching the ball AND creates a totally new Shaft Load on the Y or Lateral Plane. Until that shift of rotational base it just didn’t exist. This is what Lag calls Acceleration. It’s not because it’s not measurable and it comes out of nowhere if you get the jist. This is also where Homer Kelley gets that PP2 or whatever because the spot at the base of the right index finger has a new huge pressure on it. It has become a fulcrum point, kind of. Now you work on speed as a way to maximize and keep the Lateral Shaft Press THROUGH THE IMPACT ZONE, which is from 18 inches behind the ball to 18 inches past. The clubhead approaches the ball just like Lag talks about: inside, open and shallow. The more of all of them the better. All the rest, the ‘cut it left’ and everything is textbook. Once the club passes P4 as y’all call it shows over, doesn’t matter anymore as long as you keep balance. Again Lag is right that the finish tells the story and your position there tells the story of the entire swing and needs attention but it’s everything that happened before that makes it good. But it’s that Lateral Shaft Press that seperates the greats from the wannabes. When I was in my early 20’s I was almost as deep as Lag is now, who knows if I can ever get that deep in the slot again. I hope so but we’ll see. And the beautiful thing is that the club stays so square to the target and so shallow for so long that the ball can be just about anywhere in the impac zone. That’s how you hit different shots and is one way of changing the ball flight. You can move the ball anywhere and it just nuts itself. The ball compresses and sticks to the club like crazy glue giving control that people who ain’t got ‘the move’ have never imagined before. Now the new rock hard balls tak all the control away, and takes all the advantage out of this crazy good move through the ball because it jumps off the face before it has a chance to be totally compressed through the zone. The other thing the compression is supposed to do is lower the launch angle way down closer to pretty close to the path the club is on. When it takes off too fast it also takes off high. In the real world of great golf the launch angle doesn’t get the ball in the air, the backspin does. The backspin makes the ball climb climb climb up until it runs out of momentum and falls down soft like ‘the butterfly with sore feet’. The bacspin works just like an aerofoil on an airplane wing. The other thing it does is create a pocket of dispersed air around itself for stability in flight. The more spin, the more stable it flies and IGNORES THE WIND (Boy do y’all owe me a bunch of money for this…). There’s a balance though beacuse TOO MUCH spin will make it go straight up and nowhere. But hence the term, ‘piercing ball flight’. Now when everything is perfect you can hit it real low and still hold the hardest greens because the spin is good and it still stays in the air until enough mometum and speed is gon for it to land on a good steep descent angle. The best strikers are the ones who can hold greens easily with low shots and get the ball to do what they want on impact with different heights. But with the rocks that don’t compress they just take off high and hot with no compression and flutter around with no pocket of disperced air protecting it and coming down whenever they feel like it. Hit and hope. Plus the dimple patterns are set up so the sidespin doesn’t take any effect left to right on the shot unless it’s really extreme, so the nuanced cuts and draws have to be hit like smothers and slices, like Bubba Watson does.

If we were still playing with wound golf balls all the ‘frynig pans’ that Lag keeps whining about would be completely useless. They’s be 4 foot long nine irons because the COG is so low and far away from behind the ball they’d send the higher spinning ball straight up in the air and not even 200 yards. The only way to hit them a long way is with a good swing and clubs with the majority of the mass right behind the hitting area. All the jumbo heads would be useless too because the mass is too thinly disperced all over theplace and it wouldn’t transfer enough energy into the ball. Then the techno junkies could play around with face inserts on small heads like they used to but we’d be back to actually playing some nice decent golf again. The swings would tighten back up, all the courses would be playable again, and the cream would rise up to the top and we’d see some great golf from the guys who can really play and choppers would still be choppers just like it’s been for umpteen million years. And everybody lived happily ever after. Even Lag I hope.

So boys and girls this shit can be changed. Letter writing campaigns. Clinics. Press. Phone campaigns. Eventually the light bulbs will turn on and maybe even figure out some way to convince some small company to make balatas again. The guys with good swings will know they work because it makes sense. Somebody wins a tournament, hopefully one of us and we start a snowball effect. Balatas are THAT MUCH BETTER than ProV’s. It’s easier to shoot low scores with them. It will come, I promise you. Let’s start it here!

LCD
Love your enthusiasm to get Balata balls back but just like old persimmon woods never never again. Dont you wish you had a 47 Packard car they dont make em like they use to . Petitions,letters protest never accomplished anything heck there still protesting wars. But it would be nice to see balata balls golf might be a little more fun.

47 Packard, huh? Let’s make it a 48 Caddy instead. That’s what Hogan was driving when he and his wife hit that Greyhound Bus in West Texas. Now if they had been in an Accord or a Taurus they’d have both been killed instantly. Airbags don’t save people from THAT, only thousands of pounds of solid steel to absorb the impact. Maybe a big Ram 3500 and you end up as good a shape, just being able to keep from amputation as Hogan did after that wreck. So you could say that an old car design like that, if you integrate it with good modern technology like seat belts, more efficient fuel injectors, (which were standard on the Tucker that year, and every damn one of them made is STILL on the road) airbags, shatterproof windshields etc. are actually way way better than the garbage today. If nothing else they didn’t blow the trannies after 60k miles. But comparing car to golf balls is a bit of a stretch, maybe.

And if you think getting off ya butt and doing something doesn’t change anything you’re wrong. As a source of pride I’ll tell you that my folks a few years ago got a Rupublican Governor in the Red Red Midwest and his elected Sec of State impeached and thrown out on their ear with two press conferences and an empty Ryder Truck. Opened the eyes pretty damn good to see the way the machine really works.

In this case what needs to happen is easy, somebody needs to win a golf tournament somewhere. The competetion is gonna see just how much easier the game is when when you can actually hit shots that go where the hell they’re supposed to and the rest will very slowly, then instantly take care of itself. It’s the nature of competition. Stupid BS infects the competitive field until it stretches itself too far and then snaps back with VENGENCE. Nobody gave a shit about baseball players doing drugs until they got past Babe Ruth’s Records. Now look at it. PISS NOW BITCH! BLOOD TOO! Rightfully so because it makes the game a disgrace. But it has to get THAT BAD before everybody pulls their head out of their asses and sees what they’ve done to the game. In golf it is that bad. Lag and TM say it all the time:

TM: I hit it higher and shorter than I did 20 years ago. And I’m redoing my swing because I don’t hit it as good.

Lag: I went to Open Qualifying and the balls were jumping over the greens where I couldn’t play from.

Bringing back wound balls fixes EVERYTHING.

Insert the sound of heads banging against walls here…

That deep shallow angle of attack is the mystery of the game. It’s tough to achieve because it requires patience and trust- it’s not the direct route to the ball, the bad shortcut thats so appealing :frowning: The obsession with a descending blow confuses the hell out of most- I know it did me for ever. The ideal is LOW AND LATE but thoughts of ‘late hit’ and ‘descending blow’ and ‘divot after the ball’ get people so steep that any chance of shallow and penetrating goes out the window.
So much of the difficulty is actually about making contact, I know that’s one of the things that makes it difficult for me to keep shallow. If I get tense I get steep straight off the bat. It gets back to dumb basics- clubhead, ball, hit. Do’h!! It takes a lot to ingrain that shallow attack. One of the things that I’ve found helpful is changing the size of the ball. It’s very interesting how naturally you can get the club shallowing into the back of a soccer ball and meet it strong and flush. Still a ball, still the same shape. Then move down to a softball, and tennis ball. Baby steps of discovery and really helpful. I’m not saying hit the shit out of it, especially the softball(not so soft!) but it’s interesting what you can do instinctively when given safe conditions- ie. big un-missable ball. It’s eye opening how you would hit ‘a ball’, both for the path and for points of flexing and tensing in your hands and arms. Then the golf ball is no different, just smaller. That’s when the patience and trust comes in to know that that long shallow journey over the ground will actually result in meeting the back of the ball with the middle of the club…
I miss a day in this place and there’s pages of stuff to catch up on. So they tell me we’re big fans of the new ball around here :slight_smile:

That’s of course all my fault. I’ve got all these web pages saved from here and there for so long now it’s nice to have someplace to put them all. When you get down to it when one part, any part of the equation in something as hard as golf gets screwed up it throws the whole thing into imbalance and makes it so the longer you do it the worse you get. No matter how good your mechanics and theory are if the equipment or the ball is no good it ruins everything. Bom like you were talking about losing ‘ability’ to hit shots and have confidence with different lies and all the other things you posted, it’s frigging insane. I mean this is like anything else, you like it even love it but why on earth would the skillset get worse over time? And the exact same thing happened to me. Why? We should all be getting better as time goes on. Everybody should. But the equipment started getting weird and the ball was like a guillotine. But the great thing is that we can fix it. We know what a great move is. That is such a great description, on the money man. But even though it’s hard don’t mean we can’t get back there. Now we know all the components. The ball we can find and I tell ya what, even if I have to invest a few bucks and find some guys and old equipment to have them made up myself; I dun give a F man, I’ll do it. And keep it up with the ProV rocks too, they go just fine when we nut em. Better move, confidence, real playability, ripping pins out of the ground, Game on.