Exactly what I’m talking about. No kidding decent equipment stays the same. But one of these days out at Mare you’re gonna be looking over an eight or nine iron into the same old green you’ve hit however many times and it’s just gonna look totally different. Different shot, different feel, different swing. Like Bizarro World. And from there unfortunately there’s no going back as long as that piece of shit is sitting on the ground looking back at you. I hope it doesn’t happen to you like it happened to me in 01. Really.
Imagine back in the day you see some hack just swinging out of his shoes at a Titleist Balata ball and happens to kinda nut it but real steep and armsy but with a good persimmon driver. What’s the shot gonna be? Takes off ok and then balloons straight up and doesn’t even go 200. That’s with a good club with the weight right behind the screws. Now imagine the same guy, same shot, same balata ball but this time with one of ‘the frying pans’ with all the weight on the bottom of the club. Where’s the ball? Not even 150 this time. If it’s into a breeze maybe he can run and catch it. Now Mr Hacky Sack pulls out a ProV. Hello 300. Different universe dude. And you and me become no different than Mr Hacky. That sucks.
There clearly are ‘other ways’, I wasn’t saying other ‘better’ ways. The ways to bring the club into impact are many and varied, good and bad- but maybe the rules for good and bad have changed. The description of the guy hitting the weak handsy balloon shots in the 90’s that now hits it 300 because of the ball is the point.
LCDV, by the sounds of it, ultimately the problem is the ball and not how you hit it. Or are you saying that less compression is actually better with the new ball since it will go where it starts regardless? Is this why clubhead speed is now so important as opposed to stable alignments and path? Is the era of control over and is this why these young kids are fearless, because they have to be? It’s how they learned through seeing what the ball does?
It almost sounds like I different sport.
The two schools of thought are…
- Tradition
- Progression
There are still a lot of traditional sports and games.
Olympics, chess, billiards, Darts, bowling, Vegas games and so forth
There are new games invented
X games, Reality TV show games and so forth
and some developing hybrids from old ones.
Canadian rules football, arena football, free style skiing… and on and on…
The question I have is… just because a new game evolves which is fine… should the old one be thrown to the trash bin? and why?
There is no doubt that golf was a much more interesting, more highly skilled game, that included a greater sense of both feel and aesthetic.
There is no doubt that it has been dumbed down.
We had the hickory age, The age of persimmon and steel shafts, and now the Tiger Titanium age.
Oddly enough, there seems to be more interest in the hickory revival than persimmon and steel. There have been 8 National Hickory Opens played since
the turn of the new millennium. I think that is wonderful…
But as big as golf has become, I don’t see why there should not be room for everyone. The modern tour, the persimmon tour, the hickory tour. National Opens for each across the globe.
Let the velocity junkies play 8000 yard wide open courses, then focus on their 5 milled face sharp groove wedges, and putting on velvet surfaces.
The shotmakers play the strategic game from tee to green with less emphasis on putting, and play all the classic tracks that were designed for the guys that like shaping the ball around, and playing the finer nuances of the game.
Then the die hard traditionalists who dress up in knickers and coats, and play the more novelty version of the game as if it’s like going to the Renaissance fair. I’m sure there is a quality to all of that that is wonderful… hitting remake guttas and or feartheries. Personally I’d rather do that because I think you actually would need a real quality golf swing to excel at that game.
I think there is a way to make everyone happy. But this mightier than thou self imposed corporate take over of the game simply to exploit for profit has been put forth by non golfers. The USGA still harps about unholding the game’s fine traditions… what joke.
When you dumb it down, take away the need for skill and precision you make it less of a game.
Time and time the manufacturers justify their game improvement equipment as making the game more enjoyable (and that’s the word they always use) for the average golfer. They claim golf is too hard and must be made easier for people to be attracted to it. Can this really be true? I don’t believe so.
If everyone hits 200-250 off the tee instead of 250-300, is that any less fun?
Is looking 50 yards farther into the woods for your ball fun?
Are slower rounds fun because greater time must now be allowed for the group ahead to clear?
Is it fun to have 50-100 yard approach shots only to discover you don’t really have any game and take two more to get on the green?
Are fried eggs fun, as LCDV points out with the armsy swing, and simply from the fact that approach shots are now made with higher lofted clubs?
It’s all an illusion based on the enjoyment one gets from hitting it farther than they normally do, or their mates normally do. But if your stock shot becomes longer, and everyone elses does too, is that really more fun?
[i]The two schools of thought are…
- Tradition
- Progression
There are still a lot of traditional sports and games.
Olympics, chess, billiards, Darts, bowling, Vegas games and so forth[/i]
Living in Hell, err Las Vegas the first thing is that Blackjack and Craps are NOT sports. They are ripoffs and stupid. If you want to talk about traditional games, let’s do it. How about Baseball, Basketball and Football? These are traditional games. Games that are also traditional which are also being ruined by technology are A#1 Tennis and also Bowling, Darts and Billiard games, but not nearly to the extent that Golf and Tennis are, mostly because they’re not big money.
Golf and Tennis are Big Money, Big Time Pro Sports just like the Big 3 Team Sports. And they’re ALL absolutely positively dependent upon tradition in order to survive and thrive. Remember ya boy Barry Bonds and the disgrace and abomination that was his turning all the records on their ear. What a joke. I still think they should take the team away from Peter McGowan for not firing Bonds or just sending him home. I threw my Giants cap away and I’ll never go to another game. All the Roid Freaks ruin the essence of the game for everyone because nothing makes any sense anymore. Just like the '19 Black Sox almost ruined it. Context is everything.
Now look at all the big sports and how ‘innovation and technology’ screw everything up and eventally are left at the wayside. Artificial Turf, The Designated Hitter I hope, Polyester Uniforms, The New Synthetic Basketball a couple years ago, Aluminum Bats, Maple Bats that break and hurt people, Whatever the new Tennis Raquets are these days, Glowing Pucks for TV, whatever. Now there’s good technology too for sure. Better Safer Helmets, Instant Replay (Debatable), New Medicine, Spring Loaded Rims and Better Backboards, better Cleats and Equipment, more consistent balls in every sport.
Now thanks for bringing this up because this is the best argument anyone could ever make. Baseballs are made pretty similarly to the way golf balls used to. Cork center, rubber windings and a leather cover, maybe synthetic now. Golf balls used to be a liquid core contained in rubber (solid for the durable balls), similar rubber windings and a dimpled rubber or synthetic rubber cover. If they started making space age solid core baseballs like the new golf balls the fences would have to be 450 on the corners and pushing 600 straight away. You’d need like 13 fielders and pitchers and corner infielders would DIE all the time from not being able to react in time to batted balls. No thank you. The dynamics of the composition of the ball determine the very nature of the game.
Now in Golf, just like Tennis you’ve got a weak governing body at the mercy of the Manufacturers. More like Boxing than the NFL, and the NFL’s looking at an uncapped season and strike anyway. It all sucks because of WAY WAY WAY TOO MUCH MONEY. But the manufacturers have control of the rules and set it up so every January 1, everyone has to throw all their clubs and balls away because it’s all outdated and the new stuff is ALLEGEDLY the real deal. All the while everything sucks, nothing is any good or makes any sense and it just makes swings and golf games worse, so now the club pros are making a ton too giving lessons on how to make the latest en vogue compensation. Welcome to the Golf Business you bunch of Suckers. It’s gotten so bad and so out of control that even the tour players don’t remember how good they’re supposed to be if they even knew in the first place.
Lag if you’re really supposed to be teaching some folks how the good you can REALLY play the game of golf, you damn well better realize how important the golf ball is. You teach compression compression compression, which is right but you refuse to acknowledge the fact that THESE ROCKS DON’T COMPRESS. NO COMPRESSION = NO FEEL AND CONTROL.
Going around bitching over and over, ‘this sucks, that sucks, and the other sucks too’ is Chicken Little Shit dude. Why does it suck? Cause and effect. Get off the the mountain top screaming common sense passed off as Matrix Stuff everybody with a bit of sense has known for a hundred years and look at the reality. And to everyone who is looking to learn how to play a bit it is gonna get pretty depressing if y’all ever figure out how good you should to be able to do this but can’t because the ball’s got a Hemi and a wacked out computer chip sending it up up and all over the lot. It’s so bad you can’t even knock it down anymore. It just knuckles up and flutters no matter what you do.
I don’t buy all this end of the world negativity crap, there’s a way to get this done, and striking the ball solidly is never going to go out of fashion. If the ball is the way it is then that’s another matter, we have to roll the dice a little more, maybe learn a few new shots. But the core and basics of the game is still and always will be about consistent solid contact regardless of what shot you’re hitting. I’m an ideas kind of guy, and I understand the difficulties involved here but I keep asking people to throw out solution ideas and all I keep hearing is that the clubs are shit and the balls are shit. People are still shooting 25 under par on every tour around the world, so it’s possible to do this. And the average guy has way more to gain from hitting it too solid than not solid enough. Have you ever seen the smile on the face of 16 handicapper when he airmails the green with a club he’s usually short with? I think we’re losing track of reality getting too picky about the finer more nuanced version of the game. Granted, that’s very important to me too, but all I can hear here is that it’s a waste of time to hit it solid- I just don’t see that as a place to start.
But there are no shots to hit. I know you’re a pro and you’re almost 5 years younger than me so it’s hard to remember the kind of control there was. I bet when you were in college you were playing a Titleist Professional with the harder cover, just about everyone was. That was the last good-first bad ball Titleist put in the Players’ hands. You gotta remember all the shots you had with that, or better yet before with the real Tour Balatas or the Slaz or the Maxflis. Low cut 5 irons. Knockdown pinched 9 irons. High slinging Deuce. With every lie except deep rough you could just compress it right through the lie, most of the time the lie didn’t even matter. And not by digging, just by hitting it Flush, I mean Bang, Gone. What lie? Who cares. Now every lie dictates the shot. There’s no compression any more. It just takes off and does its own thing way up wherever no matter what you do. Go hit some screaming pitching wedges with a hard hard pivot at some cornered pins about head high from 105. Lots of luck. You’ll be picking them up off the next tee.
So go do all the modules. I’m not saying you shouln’t. Not saying there’s a better way cause there ain’t. But half the battle is sitting down on the ground giving you the finger. Show’s over kids if you think anybody can work that bad boy like you can a real ball. Hogan and Nelson couldn’t do anything with these things, and they were the best by a mile.
Why not just get some Professionals or whatever was your favorite ball back in the day and play them. So you hit first from the fairway. Hit it stiff and put the pressure on.
I do know what you’re talking about, believe me. I had a good few years with the tour balata before the Professional 90(funnily enough, I still have a about 6 dozen in the closet so I’m still playing around with that ball, and have an up to date sense of it) and then I was obviously in the middle of the Pro V take over. In fact I still have a good few of the first generation 392s with the hot seam- I’m sure your remember that one. Even taking into account the aging effects on those balls, it’s amazing how much shorter that first Pro V is compared to the new ones. That’s a scary thought- where will we be in another 10 years?! I still have hope that there getting closer to regaining some of the characteristics of the old balls. Taylor Made have this new Penta which, conceptually at least, is reaching for a better level of performance through the bag. We can only hope.
It’s actually quite enlightening to hear your analysis of the ball performance. In a lot of ways I saw my lack of ability to hit my shots as a deterioration of my game. It was partly to do with that for sure, but your description of the death of the wedge shot hit a painful nerve with me. Your bad lie description hits a nerve with me too- I honestly never blamed the ball for my lost ability to hit those shots. A lot of this is actually news to me.
I grew up in Ireland playing all the best links courses in GB&I in championship condition with persimmon(for a while), blades, and balatas so I miss that game just as much as the next guy, the wedge shots maybe more than most.
But are you saying that there is no solution? This is what I can’t understand. I’m genuinely asking if compressing the ball is a negative thing now, what do you think? Do you have any thoughts on that. Knowing that the ball wont listen is huge when making a decision- shaping shots can almost be written off. I get that it sucks, but what can be done barring a split tour scenario?
Btw, I don’t do the modules, I’m here as a free agent looking to learn and share thoughts on the game because I respect a lot of the ideas thrown around here…
I got some Tour Balatas off of ebay, they’re kind of yellowed out and the covers are pretty crusty, they may have even lightened up a little from being in dry storage in somebody’s garage but they fly ok. How do you think I came to this conclusion? I’m not so secretly now buying up every damn one I can find. Just looking at them sit on the ground is like instant recall. Like George on Seinfeld, I’m back baby! All I gotta do now is get my butt into shape so I can rotate and get some soft leather wraps that don’t tear up my hands until I build up the callouses again. But I tell you this, if we play and I’ve got a real ball in my hands I ain’t hitting first into the green. I promise you that my friend.
And this diatribe is for the good of the game and for opening eyes to the reality of the situation. I got every balata on ebay marked and I saw them first. Dibs, boys. I will come to your house…
Bom everyone in here talks about light bulbs going off in regard to the swing and as I kinda start playing again I look at my whole playing career this thing about the ball was the biggest realization I ever had. I had it a while ago and I wanted to wait to let the cat out of the bag until I met Lag in person at National, but then I figured whatever, besides I can’t play both days because of work and it doesn’t mean the same thing to both of us because we weren’t going through the similar experience. I changed my swing when I was 18 because I was a bad wedge and short iron player. Great driver with one shot, a mess with the short clubs. So I really learned how to play. But looking back as my career progressed all the shots I could hit when I was in college kind of slowly faded away. And now I get it, finally. It was the ball, nobody was working it any more and it just changed slowly. I’ve got the videos of my swing progression through the years and it got way tighter and better, but stiffer in the hands the shorter the club got. The only clubs I changed were the driver and the putter. So what’s the only explanation? The BALL. All the changes in construction and dimple patterns. It got in my eye and my swing. Steer jobs and stiff wrists with the short irons because the ball was doing things I couldn’t control. Then it bleeds into all the other clubs. And the same thing happens to everyone else. When everybody is hitting the same shots it’s hard to see the evolution, but it’s undeniable.
If anybody wants to play like the masters, like Hogan or Knudson or even Faldo or Norman you need wound golf balls. That’s what is required in a pivot driven swing. It has to compress and take off low. And it needs the old 384 dimple pattern so the visual feedback of the shots matches the physical movements in the shot. Just like anything else the result has to be in sync with the mechanics. No doubt one of the most eye opening things I’ve ever realized. If somebody would start making them again I’ll play anyone anywhere anytime with any equipment from anybody. I may not have a world class game but it would give me THAT MUCH of an advantage.
Very interesting. it makes a ton of sense for sure. I did a lot of swing experiments this year with my interpretations of TGM concept hitting vs swinging and I noticed some stark things. When I was working on hitting my driving and long irons were better than ever- in fact as a result of a lot of that work I’m hitting my driver better than at any point in my career both in terms of distance and direction. I essentially feel like I’m hitting popped knuckle balls. I certainly wouldn’t claim to be TGM hitting, I’ve worked out a few different things that are really clicking. This popped shot was a shot I used to have with my 3w without having any idea how or why. At one point I hit my 3w far, and actually farther than my driver. I used to put that down to confidence but I’ve since been able to see the mechanical reasons for that. I wont go into that now. But as I took that concept or swing thought down through the bag it was all going a little crazy down there to the point where I had no touch with 9i down. In thinking about it now, quite a bit of that was technique but a lot was the ball- it was literally jumping off the face. A nice feeling with a TM-R7 in your hands but not with a 52 degree wedge. As the year went on a started to feel this sense of softness in my hands and more of a clubhead feel for my shorter irons, a feeling of the club in my fingers through impact- there was a lot of improvement as a result. I’m thinking about this because I’m looking at those guys out on tour, and they stiff wedges all day- there has to be a reason they can do that. Looking at tour players today I don’t think there would be one that is a pure hitter anymore- I’m sure there are more, but Harrington is the only one of the top of my head that is really cutting it left through impact, and he works with Bob Torrance(Hogan) and he has hit some dodgy wedge shots over the last year to say the least! And doesn’t have nearly the short game that he did that’s for sure. Thoughts, thoughts…
… I’m sure that Twomasters description of the sopping wet greens might have a hand in helping their wedge games though 
My entire adult life I’ve always used the short irons as the true litmus test for how good I’m really hitting it. That’s where the swing is shortest and the expectations are highest. Of course driving it is important but it’s with th 9 and the wedges that scores are made and you turn 3 shots into 2. You turn 75 into 70 with the tee shots, but you turn 70 into 65 with the short irons. The target for a nine iron is a lot smaller than a 4 iron so you have to be more precise. Plus there’s a bigger turn in the longer clubs so there’s naturally a better chance to save it before impact if it gets a little wierd.
So I hit a lot of short irons when I practice and I like to get everything pretty tight except my shoulders and wrists. I personally could care less about hitting or swinging in the terms defined here and in TGM, all I know is that the most important things are keeping the face square to the target line through impact and imposing my will on the ball through compression. How anybody gets there is storytime, you either get there or you don’t. Then you work on mechanics through divot patterns and ball flight, starting while the ball is on the face. I always base my mechanics on the short irons and then integrate through the longer clubs. I did it backwards when I was a kid and had a bad move, but life’s lessons learned. Everybody has different ways of getting down the road and that’s the way it should be. But all touch and feel to me starts with keeping the ball on the face with the wedges and working the club from open to DTL after impact and up to take the pressure off my knee. I don’t know what they’re doing on TV, I don’t even slow it down to see the lines anymore. All I see on the occasions I’m watching is arms, ungodly high flights and sprays. Then I go out to the range and get the exact same thing. Whatever, I feel like the move is right but the ball flight is a bad joke. As I get the bullet balls out of my swing it’ll come back in time.
I’ve grown to believe that the mechanics of the swing change quite a bit through the bag as the club gets longer and the ball gets further away. I hear you about using your short irons as a litmus test, but mechanically speaking, keeping the face square with a wedge is a lot different to keeping it square with a driver. This is obvious to you, I’m sure, but I used to think that the one swing worked through the bag but I’m not so sure anymore. It can be as difficult to work it out from the wedges as it can be to work it in the other way. For the sake of better terms, I think a hitting concept morphs into a swinging concept as the shaft gets shorter and the ball gets closer
The concept of hitting and swinging are new to me this year. I went digging over the last few years to try and come up with some clear thoughts about the swing. Regardless of what you want to call them, there seems to be different ways to hit the ball. I’ve found that it does help to at least match how you try swing the club with how you want to go through impact, or at least to have a clear picture of how you want the club to go through there and then let things happen with that understanding. I’m not sure that there are just two ways, swinging and hitting, but I’ve definitely benefitted from cleaning up the journey through the impact zone and aligning it’s shape with the path of the club.
This is a bit of a tangent but I’ve been wondering a lot lately about loading and whether or not it’s even a correct concept to use in the swing. It’s a new thought, so I can’t really elaborate on it, but so much of the action happens late and around the ball that I wonder about the value of loading or even thinking about loading during transition. The thought came out of trying to reconcile the opening of the angle on the way down with maintaining lag pressure on the shaft- I can’t really get my head fully around those two things happening at the same time.
LC - I really think you are onto something very real, and important and profound here. I had never thought about the high tech new balls impacting the game that much, but I think you are correct. I remember getting a shag bag full of Titleist Professionals as a tip from one of my Nationwide tour player students back around 96 and using those for next few years, similar behavior to the Strata, and then around 2001 or maybe a bit later, when those old Pros ran out, the newer high tech balls came on the market, and I too really noticed the ballooning wedges, which used to be my forte, (low spinnning two hop wedge) and suddenly they are going sky high. I thought it was my swing. So I de-lofted all the irons, PW at 45 degrees, eventually to 44 1/2, gap wedge at 49, all in a somewhat vain attempt to keep the ball down. The wedges and short irons are where you really see the balooning. SInce the new ball is supposed to spin less, can it be that they just launch a ton higher?
mechanically speaking, keeping the face square with a wedge is a lot different to keeping it square with a driver.
Totally. It’s a bigger swing for sure, but I want to set the rules for what’s gonna happen from 18 inches behind the ball to 18 inches after it’s gone in the same manner. I establish the rules with the wedges and then expand them to a bigger swing scenario. Of course for a lot of shots the clubface is eventually gonna flip for the driver but not until way outside the impact the impact zone. Lag’s shot of cutting it left is me with every club and every shot, but I have to finish way way higher and not as far around because of my knees. And again like he says I work from impact out. That’s why I practice so much with the shortest clubs, they’re the easiest to work. The bigger clubs for me are the same move through impact, just with a wider stance and with my arms extended out more. But whatever floats your boat. If it works, work it. Everybody’s different. One of the most amazing swings I ever saw was on a range in Sac, a guy hitting it crosshanded and PURE. Kept the face square to the target THE ENTIRE SWING. Million percent better than Trevino. Crazy pure, who the hell is anybody to tell this guy how to hit it.
BP- Once this sinks in it’s gonna change the entire way you see the game. Look at everything that has changed.
Cast Heads = Harder Material, Less Spin.
Low COG away from behind the ball = High Launch Angle, Less Spin, No Penetration in Flight.
Stronger Lofts = Less Hang Time.
Solid Core, Thin Covered Ball = Less Compression, Higher MOI, Lower Total Surface Contact with Clubface, Dramatically Higher Launch Angle, LESS CONTROL.
Light Heads = Less Mass, Less Energy Transfer, Less Distance, LESS CONTROL.
And even though it’s taking off higher, it’s not because of spin which makes the apex of the flight sooner in the journey and the descent to the ground start earlier. So instead of falling to the ground at an angle of say 65 degrees after running out of gas, it’s hurtling in at say 50 degrees with the after burners on? Is that about right?
I don’t know if you follow soccer but there’s been similar ‘progress’ with that ball. They’re working to eliminate as much seem indentation as possible so the thing is floating around like a knuckle ball. The goal keepers are looking like idiots while the so-called genius free kick takers are walking around like heroes after kicking a ball 25 yards that swerved 5 different ways- none of which they aimed for. It’s a joke.