A student recently had a inquiry about this swing… that of Byron Nelson.
The student suggested that Byron was more upright than what is taught here, but what really is important about anything
flat, is that flat is happening through impact. References about flat and upright start and finish here, not where the club is at the top, or how a player sets up to the ball.
Bryon, certainly during his prime years as shown here, was all about a shallow flatter entry into impact. Although Byron was a bit more lifted at the top than say Hogan was, he had a pronounced drop into the slot that we see as a recurring theme with top shelf ball strikers.
Does anyone else experience an increase in L wrist cupping during the free down. In other words, the wrist starts cupping gradually to the top to whatever anount of cup there is once it arrives there…then during transition, it really cups to it’s max while things are dropping. Hope this is the right thread. Apologies if it isn’t. RR
RR
I have been feeling exactly the same thing but with a caveat ; it has to be created by the pivot. As you soon as you try to manufacture it with the hands/arms you are already creating a throw from the top.
Thanks Macs for the reply. The increased cupping is not something happening by conscious effort…I’m feeling it happening, but not sure exactly why. I love the feeling and so does the ball! It may have something to do with rolling the face open as wide as possible going back. I’m rolling the serial number ( assuming it is located on 6:00 on the ferrule ) open quickly so it points away from me as soon as possible.
During transition…the increased cupping is happening when lowering and feeling pivot position itself. It feels like a “Harley” movement with the L hand…it really opens the toe when dropping to find the proper entry corridor. RR
I don’t see the flat vs cupped debate as a debate at all…
Like so many things in the golf swing “it depends”.
Force or pressure supplied by the pivot will flatten the wrist through acceleration. The INTENTION to cup the wrist is simply
the resistance to that force. This resistance creates feel for us and can enhance the spacial awareness of the hands during the downswing.
When I first had this lightbulb, it was the result of increasing my post impact pivot speed through various drills I was doing at the time. I started hitting the ball really low… so to get a bit higher trajectory on the ball, I worked on trying to bend the left wrist or cup it and hold that cup right through impact. I would have sworn that I was doing this, but when I taped it… it was as flat as can be. I suppose it was getting a bit arched before.
Now if I were to tell a beginner to try to feel a bent or cupped left wrist at impact… that would surely not be a good idea… but it could be for a much better player, depending upon what they were doing in their swing.
Either way… I don’t see how trying to force the FLW is going to ever be beneficial… even for a beginner. I just don’t see how strapping boards to your wrists and such absurdities could help. Get the PIVOT going, and the FLW will be your vapor trail result… in fact you may even try not to do it at some point.
Great question Macs. Lot to think about on that one…but on the surface it would seem the answer would be “no” if one is defining that head movement as a straight up movement ( like a periscope ) as the shoulders and torso are working back to the inside carrying the club along with it. That would seem to be a pretty aberrant spine straigtening move going back.
However if the spine is more erect at address, or even if it’s not…the shoulders and torso movement could cause a feel of the head moving slightly upwards but backwards at the same time…almost like a head tilt with the R ear getting farther away from the ground than it was @ address, and this may feel like the head is moving upwards but it is really just following the axis of torso rotation. That’s how I feel it anyway… I don’t care really what the head does as long as it’s responsive and not active.
Also, eye domination would seem to play a part in this also. Have to do some more thinking on that one, and the above response, because…as Lag says: if one doesn’t know the answer immediately, then they really do not know the answer at all and could lead one on the wrong path…so be it for my thoughts on your question. RR
That is a little pamplet given to me by my dad when I was a kid. Even though it is very plainly wtitten, it didn’t click with me. I often think golf instruction is like the 6 blind men describing the wooly mammoth in a museum by feeling it… they are feeling and saying different things.
Golf is worse, because we do not know if instructors are talking about swinging or hitting…or if they are talking about what they feel, or what they do.
Finally I think I “get it”. My take ( and I still may be wrong)…Chi Chi talks about dividing the downswing into 2 parts, the first is down…he describes pulling the butt of the club with his left hand. This tripped me up for a long while, until I realized it must accompanied by the right elbow straightening, while the upper body does not yet turn. The second part begins when his hands are about waist high. At that point he advocates what sounds like a tremendous pivot drive to the ball and beyond, utilizing his right foot as leverage and upper body( “drive the right shoulder”).
Moonless night, Chrysler 300, huge backseat…very similar experience back in middle school. Though the “wooly” part was just as much fun to feel as the “non-wooly” parts!
Two-stage rocket, baby! Though I prefer to think of left shoulder pulling instead of the right shoulder driving.
Cheers,
Captain Chaos
p.s. Eagle, you should scan that pamphlet and throw it in the Chi Chi Rodriguez portion of player database.
I vote for Eagle to scan and upload the rest of that pamphlet or at least type some of it out … fyi, I’ve never used that big smiley face before!
Great stuff. Understanding the downswing as a 2 part motion is one of those things that when I accepted, everything changed- for the better. In my opinion, it’s one of those things that you can deal with, practice it, and get better, or you can spend the rest of your golfing life rolling the dice. Some people can just do it, like Rory instinctively dropping it and hitting it out of his right pocket as Lag pointed out, but for most people, it needs to be trained. When I read about all the brain science of how you can’t alter the club during the downswing etc., etc., I shake my head. I don’t care what they say, they need to go back to school because Chi Chi knows more than they do.
Posting the pamplet may take a while…as I am time and technically(severely) challenged. I will see what I can do. Simply getting the cover posted was a huge victory.
The 2 part downswing:
I am wondering if this may be a big reason why many baseball players have such trouble playing golf. A good baseball swing doesn’t require the same DOWN step as the good golf swing should have. Baseball is basically just AROUND, while a good golf swing should be down then around. And if you leave “down” out, you are hopelessly, and irretrievably, over the top.
Apparently some folks do it correctly from the start…unthinkingly. Did you good players ever have to even think about it and work on it?
Hey Eagle…I don’t see the cover at all. All I see is a little white box with a red “x” in it…and says something about a Chi Chi secret grab.
Don’t feel bad about being technically challenged when it comes to using computers…hell, the now generation couldn’t carry my generation’s collective jock if it came to index cards, actually using a Dewey decimal, graph paper, slide rules, and all other antiquated systems. All the old stuff would probably drive Mandrin crazy RR
BomGolf222…that clearly is an example of your rather dour approach to shedding light on and stimulating commentary by example of the biomechanics between diverse sports!
Captain Chaos - who never uses the big smiley faces ever as well…my writing and thoughts are way too controversial for smiley faces!
You can stop wondering. You are 100 per cent correct. The other piece is a baseball swing doesn’t have the same degree (as in none) of shaft rotation as a golf swing.
But that down then around piece? Been fightin’ with that for more than 40 years.
RR
… fyi, I’ve never used that big smiley face before!
RR
