wabisabi
What are your thoughts on this article, have you formed any conclusions?
Gerry
wabisabi, that article looks more like SciFi than anything else.
Another effort to overcomplicate this great game of ours 
K.I.S.S. works best for me. Peace of mind=more enjoyment.
Aussie Mick.
Hereās the same thing from a different angle:
scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/myth6.htm
From my observations, I have concluded that the body (torso and legs) just support the action of the shoulders, arms,wrists, and hands with the majority of the speed coming from forearm extension and rotation. The small contribution of the body would be mostly centripetal.
[i]The quantitatively correct percentages of how club head velocity is produced in a golf swing are:
Lateral and rotary body motion: 15 %
Right triceps, Right forearm: 85 %[/i]
Simple question: How come a left sided one-armed golfer can still swing a golf club with high speed ? 
Mandrin,
Thanks for supporting my position.
If you watch the video you posted in slow motion, you will see he starts the arm motion not by rotating the body but by dropping his head, in effect falling down to start the club moving (gravity).
Once the club is in motion from falling, the only speed producer is the left arm extending and then rotating to shorten the radius of the arc of that left arm.
The sequence of this guys swing then is:
- to have his COG fall (starting his transition from back swing to down swing) then
- left arm extension and rotation (shortening the radius of a large arc) then
- the body makes its contribution with the Centripetal pull so as not to fall down.
I bet if you could measured the forces of his body dropping and then rising they would almost cancel each other out.
I donāt believe the body can contribute more than 15 to 20% in any golf swing.
I see it a bit like a gear system. The torso is like cycling in a higher gear, producing more speed in the wheels, or club head in our case of golf. For this reason I see the torso as producing more than 50% of our power. Why is it that itās always the players with an extremely good pivot that hit it far?
m1 = 180lbs, u1 = 100mph? Where in the golf swing does an 180lb object move at 100mph?
The second part about the %'s,ā¦ The author analyzes a (highly accurate!) 30fps video of Moe, somehow measures club head travel distance from a 2d image, calculates average velocities but talks in terms of instantaneous velocities, and then says āThe quantitatively correct percentages of how club head velocity is produced in a golf swing are:ā¦ā based purely on Moeās figures.
Thatās when I follow the money trail. Ah the author has a $280 swing instruction product:
http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/videoj/lpgwindows.wmv
(This is not a drill, this is the swing.)
Wouldnāt you think that given the money available on tour that at least one pro would have swallowed his pride to swing like this if it had merit? Wouldnāt some kid stumble upon this practicing on his farm? I see many girls backswinging like this the first time they pick up a club. They soon change or give up. Why? Why put ridiculous %'s on things?
Lag,
In Moeās later year wanted to know how he swung the club, He met Jack kuykendall and Jack tried to put a model togetherā¦
Moe wouldnāt endorse Jackās theory and swing model he created to how Moe apparently hit the ballā¦
Moe said thats now how I hit the ball ā¦ Jack and Moe parted waysā¦ Jack used Moeās name to market his productā¦
3 years ago I was introduce to Jackās theory and have his DVD somewhereā¦ A guy tried to demonstrate how all the power generated was in the golf swing by sitting on a stoolā¦ I loaned the guy my guitar stool and he broke the legs on the stoolā¦ Every shot he hit was a hook and the ball flight flew with no compressionā¦
Hmmm very interesting as I said to the guy so there is no lowerbody contribution to the golf swingā¦ so can you explain why you just destroyed my stoolā¦
Lag if you seen Jacks theory and yourself knowing Moe you would agree with Moeās this wasnāt how Moe swung the clubā¦
Everyone ,
I think the misunderstand in concepts of the power in the golf swing is how itās explainedā¦ What produces the most amount of speed the clubs, then the arms , then then upper body ā¦then the lower body produces the least amountā¦ Turn this around in reverse and you have a kinetic linkā¦ the hips create speed and this speed in transferred to the upper body, The hip speed ( eg 300 degrees per second of speed) plus the upper speed created by the muscles is added together(keep simple the speed is doubled( Hips +upperbody speed = 600) this speed is transfered to the arms( speed created by the arms 600 + Upper body speed 600 = 1200 this speed is transfered to the club headā¦ the speed of club head mass 400 + arms speed = 2000 degrees per secondā¦
This is called conservation of momentum the other contributing factor is the muscles in each segment generating speed as wellā¦
This is an rough example to give you a general ideaā¦
The power is generated from the ground up until it reaches the club headā¦ each body segment contributes to the power production processā¦
Get your driver with your left arm and stall your body and see how well you hit the ballā¦ then allow your body to contribute and decided for yourself where the power is generated fromā¦
You canāt say the power solely comes from the arms nor from the bodyā¦ as i have said many times before each body segment contributes to the power production process from the ground upā¦
Biomechanic and Steb,
Try this experiment:
Grab a golf club and place the butt end of the grip against your sternum with your right hand and place the left hand mid-way down the shaft for support(for a right handed swing).
Now set up in your address position with the club over a ball on the ground (make sure the shaft has the correct lie angle from your chest out to the ball), take your normal back swing with a full shoulder turn.
Now make a down swing, rotating your body as fast as you can. If you have a swing speed meter, measure it and tell me how fast that club head moves.
The speed of the club head will be about 15 to 20% of your normal golf swing.
What we have done with this drill is eliminated the shoulders, arms, wrists and hands, all that will be left is what ever pivot speed you can generate.
Re: The above drill,
The position of the club will be very similar to holding a long putter braced in the middle of your chest but with your standard driver address position.
It would be interesting to see if somebody built a club with the extra shaft length to make-up the difference for the absent arms and then attempted to hit balls with their pivot only.
In my humble opinion I think that this reasoning forgets the fact that the shoulders. arms and hands are attached to the torso and therefore are an intrinsic part of it. That they do get speed from it, not independently on their own. Just like Teddy aptly said, itās like a gear system where a big gear moving generates great speed and power when connected to a smaller one. In this case the movement started from the torso acquires huge speed at the end of the last gear, the hands and club. My 2 cents worth.
Pippolo,
Try this experiment:
Grab a golf club and place the butt end of the grip against your sternum with your right hand and place the left hand mid-way down the shaft for support(for a right handed swing).
Now set up in your address position with the club over a ball on the ground (make sure the shaft has the correct lie angle from your chest out to the ball), take your normal back swing with a full shoulder turn.
The position of the club will be very similar to holding a long putter braced in the middle of your chest but with your standard driver address position.
It would be interesting to see if somebody built a club with the extra shaft length to make-up the difference for the absent arms and then attempted to hit balls with their pivot only.
Now make a down swing, rotating your body as fast as you can. If you have a swing speed meter, measure it and tell me how fast that club head moves.
The speed of the club head will be about 15 to 20% of your normal golf swing.
What we have done with this drill is eliminated the shoulders, arms, wrists and hands, all that will be left is what ever pivot speed you can generate.
%'s are irrelevant Wabisabi for we all sequence muscles differently. I canāt bench press much, can hardly shoulder press anything more than the lone bar itself, but I can throw far and accurately. I canāt sprint fast but I canāt find a leg-press machine with enough weight on it. How can anybody tell me which muscles I should be recruiting for a golf swing? How can someone know I carry my bag on my left shoulder, pre-fatiguing it somewhat for my next swing. It is up to me to understand some general principles to attempt to shortcut the years of trial-and-error kids do, and find what works for me.
But similar to your suggestion, I just grabbed a 4-iron, swung it averaging around 86mph. Then I locked my arms against my sides, locked my wrists and purely pivoted through, keeping my hands in the middle of my torso. 63mph.
Then I kept my pivot absolutely still, swung with the right arm using everything I could, including wrist. 46mph. If I locked my wrists it went down to 35mph.
So what now?
As you can see 63 + 46 is greater than my swing speed of 86mph. But thatās not crazy, itās to be expected. Theyāre no longer independent when done together, one affects the other. I can see no practical merit of allocating percentages to non-independent actions.
And if all that wasnāt bad enough, the authors refers repeatedly to the non-existent muscles ātriceps majorā, ātriceps minorā and āforearm majorā. That doesnāt give me much confidence.
Steb,
Try this experiment again but actually follow the directions (this experiment rather crudely demonstrates the second article above):
Grab a golf club and place the butt end of the grip against your sternum with your right hand and place the left hand mid-way down the shaft for support(for a right handed swing).
Now set up in your address position with the club over a ball on the ground (make sure the shaft has the correct lie angle from your chest out to the ball), take your normal back swing with a full shoulder turn.
The position of the club will be very similar to holding a long putter braced in the middle of your chest but with your standard driver address position.
It would be interesting to see if somebody built a club with the extra shaft length to make-up the difference for the absent arms and then attempted to hit balls with their pivot only.
Now make a down swing, rotating your body as fast as you can. If you have a swing speed meter, measure it and tell me how fast that club head moves.
The speed of the club head will be about 15 to 20% of your normal golf swing.
What we have done with this drill is eliminated the shoulders, arms, wrists and hands, all that will be left is what ever pivot speed you can generate.
TeddyIrons,
In The science of the golf swing by Dave Williams (Hardcover - 1969), Williams correctly analyzed a multiple-flash photograph of Bobby Jones swinging a Driver and if I remember correctly his clubhead speed before impact was 136 feet per second or about 113.2 mph and he also calculated his hand speed to around 20 mph.
So how can the body which has a speed of roughly 5 to 8 mph and the hands with a speed of 20 mph contribute 50% of the clubhead speed?
The only thing left to produce the speed needed in Bobby Jonesā swing is forearm extension and rotation that contributes the remaining speed.
I would think this fits nicely with Ben Hogansā āThree Right Handsā and Lagās ideas on hitting in this forum.
Wabisabi
No one is disagreeing the hands are moving faster than the body our contention is they are pushed/thrown out/rotated mostly by the pivot. If velocity is the only consideration then I proclaim 100% of the power is produced by the clubhead; everything else is there to support it and cheer it on 
Biomechanic,
I have seen Kuykendall demonstrate hitting from a stool and his ball flight was a nice little draw that travelled over 260 yds. His club head speed measured during the time of the demonstration was right around 105 to 108 mph and he was in his mid sixties in age at the time I witnessed this.
Hereās some more examples from others:
Wabisabi,
I think that you misunderstood my post. 
I was just pointing out that if 85 % support for the swing comes from the right arm than any lefty one-armed golfer is out of luck with having only 15 % left. Yet they can produce a normal golf swing. 
Kuykendallās erroneous usage of conservation of momentum would make him fail without any appeal any physics exam on the matter. 
He refers to himself as āThe Worldās Leading Scientific Golf Teacherā but very naively systematically reverses cause and effect to support his ideas.
Oh well, as long as it sells something, free market place and suchā¦ 
Mandrin,
Why did you insist on attacking Kuykendall personally when you are always so willing to prove your points with elaborate diagrams and the Math to back them up. You really havenāt proven Kuykendallās mathematical analysis incorrect you just brushed it off as him ānaively systematically reverses cause and effectā.
Cause is your conscious intention to hit a ball with a stick, effect is what the body does to complete that task.
The Kinetic Link Theory that Biomechanic keeps bringing up is just that " a theory".
Kuykendall proving that any mass above 11 pounds has no effect on clubhead speed, places the Kinetic Link Theory as an effect of the fast moving shoulders, arms and wrist applying the speed and the bodyās only job as support for their motion.
The body rotates and sits into the legs in order to stabilize the Center of Gravity of the Body (COG) and thus offset the thrust of the arms, wrists, hands and club.
Action(Cause) = Fast moving Shoulders, Arms, Wrists, Hands and Club.
Reaction (Effect) = Body stabilizing itās COG for support.
Wabisabi,
Golferās maximizing their smash factor on a launch monitor are relying on information specifically related to collision between clubhead and ball, not a collision between golfer himself and ball. 
Noticing that something is moving fast does not mean it is cause for that velocity.
His errors are very basic. There is no attack on the person just an appraisal of his ideas.