Hi all, A friend recently pointed me to this site and I’m really enjoying - much more to read thru. I thought I’d post to intro myself as I will be hanging around a bit.
Welcome anthgolf. Great to hear that you are enjoying it here - which part of the world are you from.
If you haven’t already done so it maybe worthwhile looking at the start of the Lets Talk Lags Golf Machine
story which kicked off in May 2008. Pages 1 - 30 would give you some good context for a lot that follows subsequently.
You find the links to the original content and a table of contents for each of the early 10 pages sections
at the following locations.
Pages 1 - 10 http://lagpressure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=334
Pages 11 - 20 http://lagpressure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=335
Pages 21 - 30 http://lagpressure.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=336
Enjoy!
Cheers, Arnie
Hi anthgolf, welcome to this wonderful place. I too have joined recently and am very excited about the information here presented. Looking forward to reading your posts. 
There certainly have been some interesting posts here…
I think Gerry’s analogy about the spokes from a hub to a wheel, and how they need to be tight and not loose is spot on.
I think of this within the body as “cohesive body tension” others call it simply connection.
Properly developing a firm body, that acts as a tightened spoke is consistent with good ball striking. I think both myself, Bio, and Gerry would all be on the same page here. Relaxed loose legs and hips flopping around in a haphazardly way makes this game much more difficult than it needs to be.
Again there are different intentions between hitting and swinging as I see it… and many arguments about golf technique go away when these two methodologies are understood. Both can work… but as most might know by now, I am much more impressed with a hitting technique than a swinging one if you look further into such things as how most of us function under pressure or under the gun.
Mandrin
If your going to comment on the field of biomechanics you should understand the laws of human motion…
Have you ever heard of the kinematic sequence… It means to ignore the laws of motion…
Dealing with human motion not always pure science laws… humans are different to mechanical laws remember that…
Your using science and haven’t used 3D biomechanics or studied 3D biomechanics so how can you comment ???..
One factor you didn’t factor in is what drives the power generation process of kinetic link… The loading and firing of the muscles in each segment…
The theory represented is flawed not calculating in the accelerating and deceleration of each body segment and the loading and firing of the muscles creating acceleration and deceleration in each body segment… which drives the kinetic link.
…
Forums members I have simplified this so you can follow and get a basic understanding although when using 3D and using mathematical calculation this is very complicated with Angular momentum there are many formulas for angular momentum so what I have done is simplified so you can understand further…
If you would like to know why Mandrin speak about a figure skater look up Wikipedia and they use a figure skater as an example… although this is one of many formulas for angular momentum… Mandrin is applying the incorrect formula for the golfswing and when using 3D biomechanics is formulated differently…
There is also another application called the right hand rule which is another added complex part of the equation in 3D biomechanics…
conservation of angular momentum = m x v x r … mass the club x velocity the speed of the club moving towards the ball x radius the angle of the club snapping away from the wrist…
conservation of angular momentum does apply in the golf swing as I said this is an add on to conservation of momentum… the kinetic link or power generation process…In the last stage of the kinetic link is where Conservation of angular momentum applies…
The arms accelerate and when they decelerate this causes the club to release and conservation of angular momentum occurs… the mass x velocity x radius
Mandrin 3D biomechanics mathematics and calculations are different from plucking information from Wikipedia and using them to formulate your theories, they will be flawed… Your never going to understand how angular momentum applies in human motion or the golf swing unless you have researched and worked with 3D biomechanics… Your using science formula’s to form any opinion… not measuring and test golfers using 3 D biomechanics mathematic and calculations…
Also you need to take into consideration EMG data and force data… which we also use…
There are many factors to consider and yes is very complex…
Mandrin maybe you need to understand human motion laws /3D biomechanics before making statements in the future…
Show me some measured data to prove us wrong … where’s your 3D biomechanic data to prove angular momentum doesn’t exist…
Forum Members…
Biomechanics is complex…
Measuring human motion you need three component… You need technology to measure Motion data a 6 degrees of freedom system… Technology to Force data and technology to measure Emg data… which measure muscular active… how the muscle function in motion…
There are very few companies who use all three components… Companies like TPI only use Polhymus motion data (cheap system) mainly …very use fore data either… and same with K-vest although it’s a 3 degrees of freedom system… Also k-vest is a very cheap measurement system… they only use on component…
K-vest technology was originally used to measure orientation to train pilot when flying…
When we measure we use all three components combined and have researched all three areas… working with neurologist… kinesiology and list goes on…
Using a biomedical background to inter grade motion,force and Emg data to measure human motion…
The technology the medical industry use biomedical engineers build… you have to fully understand every aspect of the human body… how the brain functions …how the body functions and moves…
The misconception of biomechanics is perception of what biomechanics … being wire and sensors and measuring people… A tad more complicated then we are all aware of…
The next complexity is learning ways and techniques how to train movement patterns… we use all three components Force/Motion and Emg data to work out training techniques how to train human movement patterns… years of extensive research…
Understanding how the human body anatomically moves and how the body naturally creates the power production process is easy… the hard part is creating individual training programs to train movement patterns for each athletes…
Research in this area never stops everyday you continue to research more and more ways to train movement patterns…
To know how the human body is moving in motion you need to measure each athlete and then you have a road map to what their movement patterns issue are… Then you carefully formulate individual training programs and exercises to train movement patterns to create the power generation process…
Lags work is very complimentry to what we do and I like Lags approach teaching dynamics which is awesome to see…
I hope this spreads like wild flowers in the industry and people start using a dynamic approach to teach golf…
Mandrin
Just an easygoing non critical suggestion. Instead of questioning Gerry’s concepts with your mind, how about trying to question them with your body. Just read it and try it. I think you posted that you play in the mid 20’s. You might be better served by glancing at the forest instead of minutely examining the bark. Golf is neither just science, nor art. If it were just art, all my artists friends would be scratch, and if only science, all you science buddies would be in the red. Gerry’s book, of which I’ve chewed through half, is to me. an incredible balancing act between those two worlds. Already, I will never look at my head or hands in the same way. There is a lot of good things that can happen when we just cruise in base mode, as opposed to grinding along the paralysis through analysis highway. As they told Mikey with a spoon in his hand — try it, you might like it.
Flop
Bio, do you have to cheapen every discussion you get involved in?
I advise you to think hard about how you could do things differently, and what type of outcomes you are looking for from your contributions. Educate? Learn? Enlighten? Entertain? Or does it have to be about your ego (and insecurity)?
The knowledge the people who come here to teach have is something a lot of people are interested in - why not try to contribute instead of trashing everything with your boring, stream of consciousness rants?
Flopshot » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:47 pm
Flop....thanks for your comments, much appreciated.
There are those in this forum who have come to understand and appreciate the fact that, to some of us, the search for truth and simplicity is the far greater goal. (Perhaps) some of us may even possess the intellectual prowess to make everything extraordinarily deep and complex, if we took a mind to go down that path, but we never do.
Some of us have seen enough in our own lifetimes to shun complexity and seek only the simple and, by doing so, can sometimes succeed in turning the very complex into the very simple.
There are those among us who do not see the need to crack walnuts with 16lb hammers, we take a simple nutcracker from a drawer to do that. There are those among us who don't hunt rabbits in gunships. A good dog, a shovel and a long stick will get the job done, just fine! And we can smell the flowers along the way.
As Leonardo da Vinci said: "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art” ...
mandrin; this is a copy paste from your original post to me
Kindle note; which the begin the the downswing.
Quite often it is less than useful to make sarcastic, smart ass comments in the hope of collecting a brownie point or two from the assembled multitude. Note in my responding post to you I corrected that, on your behalf, so that you would not be seen to be foolish. Anyone can make a typo, even computers can make typos! So you are mandrin and not mandarin. I wonder if anyone gives a damn, either way! So I gave you an extra letter, ‘a’ at that, you should be grateful
The only reason that I responded to you in the way that I did was because you did not express facts, your entire post was about what you deemed may have been implied, it reverted to the hypothetical, it fell into assumption. Had you stuck rigidly to facts, I would have responded very differently.
Metaphorically speaking; if one is going to carelessly throw out a little flurry of left jabs, one may not see that left rip coming that buries under the short ribs, followed by that big right cross that leaves one on the floor.
biomechanic.…I have a distinct recollection that our erstwhile contributor, machinegolf, made a clear and precise comment to you regarding your pending hospitalization; he wished you good luck for the following day when you were due to enter hospital! That being a correct recollection, on my part, it would seem that you were not in hospital on the day that machinegolf wrote his absurd rant. Be that as it may…
Bio....for many hundreds of years, Christianity flourished and one of the reasons that it did was because, if you didn't accept it, unconditionally, and brainwash your heirs and successors as well, you were skewered with a lance, put to the sword, burnt at the stake or generally inconvenienced and maltreated in the most horrific ways possible, at the times. Now we have radical arms of Islamic extremists trying very hard to surpass the benchmarks set by those early Christians.
What I'm saying here has nothing whatever to do with religion, or anyone's religious beliefs, it is about bigotry and mind control.
There are many ways to be a dictator, an extremist, a terrorist. Your world of biomechanics, for you, is your little world of identity. You have stated that you are on a mission to convert the golfing/ sporting world to biomechanics, to bring it all under the umbrella of biomechanics. Where is the difference between one form of bigotry and another? That's a bone we can all gnaw on.
No thank you. I'll just paddle along in my own mundane, ultra simplistic ways. The only thing I would change would be to make it even more simple, if I could. Currently I am struggling with that.
My world is all about cause, yours is all about effect. I don't need to go down into the quantum levels of the effects created in an involuntarily triggered chain reaction. Every time the trigger is the same, so too will be the entire reaction chain. Every time the primary intention is the same, so too will the trigger be the same.
On that note let's go our separate ways.
Gerry
I’m going to roll the dice on a golf question here… has anyone got any thoughts or has any research been done on grip pressure changes through the course of the swing?
Cheers,
B
Flop
I just wished people more carefully read what I write in my posts. To not immediately superimpose their own well entrenched opinions but simply read that what is written. All I have done in my post is simply point out some contradictions and asked for clarification. Nowhere have I touched the golf teaching aspects. I do carefully separate feel and real. I have even mentioned that Gerry’s book, which I have since quite some time, is one of my favorites.
The crux of the matter is very simple. Even if someone teaches golf adequately with concepts/ideas not making much sense I still have no problems with that. However when it is stated explicitly with great emphasis that it is all based on science I have a closer look. If people claim to use science I am definitely entitled to approach it from a scientific angle. This seems to me just to be simple common sense.
It always puzzles me that golfers seem to have such a paradoxical relation with science. They adore science when it is embedded in technology and gadgets and are extremely gullible when it comes to the usual inflated hype about golf equipment, but when the golf swing itself is explored with a bit of science, they often resist vigorously and sometimes even vehemently.
I always thought naively that forums were a place for discussions and not just for patting each other on the shoulder. An extreme example of this perverted attitude can be seen on LBG. Anyone asking a pointed question is extremely careful to mention that they dearly love TGM, and in no way whatsoever want to criticize, just having some queries. As answer they usually get the same citations year in year out. A typical self-congratulatory society , doomed to go nowhere.
cheers, mandrin
[quoteI always thought naively that forums were a place for discussions and not just for patting each other on the shoulder. An extreme example of this perverted attitude can be seen on LBG. Anyone asking a pointed question is extremely careful to mention that they dearly love TGM, and in no way whatsoever want to criticize, just having some queries. As answer they usually get the same citations year in year out. A typical self-congratulatory society , doomed to go nowhere. ]
[/quote]
Mandrin
I could not agree more with the fallacy of playing soft ball buddy patting that goes on at LBG. Just a bunch of golf geeks feeding of each other. This forum was founded on the basis of free thought and talk and hope it remains so.
Macs
PS: You can in no way play of a 26 so it will be nice to clarify this ; NO gimmicks please.
Macs,
Forums are indeed like a mini society and have all their typical features.
mandrin
PS: You and Flop seem to know things I ignore. 
Gerry,
Thats news to me if I recall I was rushed to hospital early hours on Wednesday morning…
Gerry be ignorant to biomechanics personally I’m not fazed if you do…
Have a closed mind this is your choice…
There are many golf coaches whom want to improve how to teach golf…
A news flash there is no simply way to learn how to play golf…
Tiger Woods , Greg Norman, Nick Price, Nick Faldo are all recognised for their years of dedication of training hard to master the wonderful game of golf…
There are so many facets to golf and skills to learn to master the game and this take years of hard work to achieve.
There are no quick fixes or easy ways… If you want to play good golf you have to train and practice.
Each athlete is unique and different they all have different issues with their game and need a program custom built to their needs. Not generic bullshit one size suits all.
Even though the human body is designed to move a certain way and is designed to create speed a certain way, there isn’t a one generic way to teach people how to achieve this… as I said people have different movement patterns issues. You have to create exercises and training programs custom built to suit each athletes needs. The end result they are creating movement patterns and creating the power generation process the way their body is designed to.
You are kidding yourself if you believe there is a simple way to learn to play golf and a generic one size fits all to teach people golf…
The only way anyone will become good at golf is to train and practice every facet of the game…
The worlds best have to train everyday to maintain their skill level to be competitive and stay on top of their game.
Golf is the hardest game in the world to play and master… If you want to be good at golf you have to be dedicated and prepared to train and practice…
There’s no secrets to this game or quick fixes…
We understand how the golfswing works and how the human body moves…
The hard part is developing training programs and training techniques to teach people which is never ending.
Why is it everyone is looking under rocks for the secret and quick fixes and the truth is what it boils down to is being prepared to train and practice accordingly.
Athletes in any sport have to train and if you want to be world class level… It’s a full time job.
If you want to become good at golf be prepared to train and work hard… if not expect to be any average golfer and accept the fact.
Don’t blame coaches or other people for our own failures not being dedicated and training accordingly…
We should all look in our own back yards before pointing the finger and blaming others for our own failures…
Gerry if golf is so simple why is it yourself you never got down to a scratch marker and why is it the 10,000 publication of your book sold…
Why are these people off scratch either… What is the answer to this?
Bio, I don’t have anything against you personally but it really seems that in every single post you’re raving about the same things over and over and over again. If people don’t agree with your ideas I don’t see how repeating them one billion times can be of any benefit, rather you might just alienate the ones that share your thoughts on the matter.
Again, I don’t mean to be rude but now when I see your name on the post I just scroll down to the next one hoping it’s from someone else. I do hope you’ll bring new information and research to this forum, in simple terms, understandable by all mere mortals like me. 
Being a skilled golfer in such a field you could bring so much to this forum Bio, but I must admit I learnt more about what you do in one of your student’s posts than 100 of yours. People flock to Lag and BP’s schools because they understand what they’re on about, they relate to them, believe in their theories and want more. Gerry’s motivation to be here is obvious, as is Mandrin’s, but I don’t get yours and I’ve tried to for over a year now. ISG must have banned you for causing riots as you’re definitely not selling your service. I’ll continue to read your posts in hope.
Steb,
Point taken… my point is for people to starting thinking and searching deeper… start exploring other avenues in golf… Open up their minds.
Steb it’s always a circle you start providing the theory and then people ask you what training programs or can you recommend training exercises…
You give an honest reply you don’t know and need to get tested to know… Then your accused of self promoting … Truth is I can’t recommend training without testing someone… Your messing with peoples neuromechanics… besides I don’t know what their movement patterns issues are…and if you took an educated guess and give someone an exercise and doesn’t work for them and people start bagging you … How can you win???
So what do you suggest to do???
If you want to learn about what we do go and see Dart to get tested…
Then your open to wealth of education and knowledge… Darty has come aboard is now testing for us in Sydney …
Bio
You posted I think more than once (here and on LBG) about Lag having movement issues but they dont affect his swing. So what. If I can get a swing half as good as him, I dont care about issues. Can you please explain why is it important to fix those issues even if it does not affect your swing.
I am currently working out under Bio’s program, under Chris Welch in the U.S. You really need to take a leap of faith to understand what Bio is talking about. Until you get screened and see how awful your graphs and charts look compared to the ideal. Using myself as an example, my lines representing my club speed and arm speed where almost identical…the result equals a flip and poor contact. No matter how hard i try to get my body to sequence better, i can’t…the graph will look the same, thus i have begun my Zenolink workouts to smooth out my kinetic link
any questions?
Mandrin
If I were mistaken about your playing ability, fallibility being an area I know quite well, I apologize. My post was directed at that aspect. I have seen no one banished from this forum for any reason. The biggest fingerprint Lag has ever left on his creation were some posts deleted (not the poster) because the bounds of civility were pushed way beyond the pale. That wonderful fact puts this place in great stead compared to the web norm. The wonder of this site is the scope it allows. In the student section it gives those working their way through Lag’s amazing system a place to offer, share and question under the refining eye of the master. In the public part, it offers great areas where ideas can freely flow. Meaningful places where we can all pick and choose, amongst the ideas and opinions that are offered, without any fear of a poster being gone the next time we visit. I, for one, as I have often said am just happy to be here.
Flop