Lag … The Right Hip … and Incline Plane

I just have some random questions I thought I’d bounce around here because I respect and enjoy the thoughts of members here way more than golfwrx.

It’s no surprise that golf is difficult for the majority of players. OTT … getting stuck … flippy impact conditions etc …

The goal of ABS is to have the shaft coming from the 4:30 line without being stuck and maintaining pressure on the shaft until post impact.

When I cast a fishing rod overhead … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

When I whip a wet towel on a horizontal plane into a wall … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

When I swing a baseball bat ABOVE MY KNEES … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

As soon as I move the swinging motion/hitting motion to the ground (or below my knees in a baseball swing) …. the right elbow is popped outside the right hip in a counterclockwise motion.

For instance … if I do module 1 standing on just my left leg it is perfect. If I do module 1 on just my right leg … my right elbow pops out instead of being tucked in.

Is the difficulty with the incline plane in all motions just that the RIGHT HIP blocks the proper motion?

If I play golf standing on only my left leg … my right hip is subdued and I can easily slot the club deep and maintain lagpressure.

Is it the RIGHT HIP that causes the majority of problems for golfers?

Welcome back paradigm_shift…

First, there is no such thing as getting stuck at ABS. I love the getting stuck position on the downswing… can’t be stuck enough! The reason we never get stuck is because we then rotate level and aggressive through the strike with an accelerating torso/pivot rotation and then work the shaft low/left/around/ then up. It’s like tightening bolts down on the right and left sides of the swing. Stuck is just a tight bolt on the downswing so we just tighten the bolt at P4 by a hard and level shoulder rotation. The ball flight will then tell us where to aim. If you are not as hard and fast moving through P4, the ball will take off slightly to the right (Trevino). Then we can also adjust out ball position for proper low point. George Knudson was correct when he said “every golf swing has a different alignment”.

Getting Stuck = I don’t understand the golf swing

TrevinoP55

Trevino must be stuck here… and oh, how open that clubface is!
Well, we are looking at one of the best golf swings of all time and one of the top 5 ball strikers of all time. Anyone preaching these are bad things… open face, flat entry have some homework to do.

paradigm,

As for the second part of your post… the right hip, left leg…
It sounds like you are ripe for the Hogan transition, methodology. Hogan moved quickly to the left leg on the downswing. However, Hogan DID NOT just stay on the left leg for full shots. He used weight transfer from the right leg to the left leg… then rotated through and beyond the strike.

Also the golf swing by nature is a top down motion… gravity is assisting us on the downswing and resisting us into the finish. That alone is working against us. We would be much better off if gravity was pulling us toward the sky… but not on this planet!

Your solution is to keep your backswing rotation intact much longer into the downswing… then just hit with a level pivot rotation later … I would also experiment with moving your ball position back significantly and hitting the ball out to right field for a while until you are getting solid crisp contact. Once there, you can adjust back as your forward rotation gets stronger, or just re align your body to your new ball flight path.

Can’t remember who it was, Gardner Dickinson? that said when Hogan warmed up, his shots started right and then they would start progressively straight as his warm up continued.

He was also big on baseball and Ted Williams and ‘connection’. Biggest lesson I took from that is his right elbow. It is clearly behind his right hip but pinned behind his right hip from last parallel before impact to just after impact.

Being from the U.K. I was recently astonished to learn that ‘connection’ in baseball is different from golf although there is some overlap. Golf is widely taught as a physical connection of the upper arms to the chest. Basically learned that baseball it is more about the kinematics of the club and the physics of the gyroscope, and stress on the body sensed by the brain; by connecting the plane of the bat (golf shaft) 90 degrees to the spine from transition all the way through impact. And flattening the plane of the bat (golf club) towards the point of the right shoulder. When the right elbow dives in front this is apparently ‘bat drag’ and not ‘bat lag’. Tight, packed upper arms, the Ballard connection of the upper left arm to pec, the ‘Elbow to Elbow’ lesson Venturi said Hogan gave Frank Chirkinian, Babe Ruth, Sam Byrd handkerchief in left armpit: all make sense.

Also makes sense when in Maximum Golf John Schlee said Hogan said all pull shots left you didn’t slot the club; all shots push right you didn’t turn level, you slid. And in my profile pic you see that deep, deep slotting of the club whilst the body is still torqued right, saving its work until much later.

If you take that ‘club down his back’ attitude back to a reference frame of impact, it is at that point torqued way back and wide open. He then loads that right elbow in transition even more and establishes baseball’s connection. It demands a lot of work from there to shut the clubface to reasonably square. A lot of modern instruction says ‘don’t have the club lagged back and torqued open so you don’t need to do the work’. I think that is mitigating clubhead throwaway and loss of stress in the shaft.

All of which - right elbow behind the hip being called stuck - is viewing the swing through a 2D perspective; giving precedence to 2D geometry over the physics and dynamics of managing the elasticity of energy in the club, the body and of the collision with the ball.

It’s more athletic to swing in the manner of a Ben Hogan (and Knudson, and Trevino, and Furyk and others). Being ‘stuck’ is an important dynamic. Hogan actually internally rotated his right upper arm in transition transition.

I’ve always felt you have to have ‘pull’ in the golf swing to have lag and a stable clubface. In Pelz’s short game bible he promotes ‘pull’ by longer followthroughs. Percy Boomer said it was pivot. Homer Kelley said shaft stress. Ben Hogan said the shaft was ‘90% of it’. He supposedly told Weiskopf it was a connected pivot. Burke said Demaret said it was shaft stress. Schlee said it was lagging the clubhead with a leading right elbow.

For me I can hit any club, including driver, off a tight lie, if I’m pulling. Pulling via pivot rotation not handle drag pull. If the clubhead is thrown then it could be fat, thin, loss of low point and divot control. Loss of stress sensed in my right hand mainly.

Again, getting ‘stuck’ helps in so many ways.

That is a tremendous post… thanks for sharing.

Can’t remember who it was, Gardner Dickinson? that said when Hogan warmed up, his shots started right and then they would start progressively straight as his warm up continued.

I had never heard this… but it’s exactly how I have played golf for many years. I have always been very flexible in my alignment for this reason. Hitting it well on those really special days is all about my pivot working aggressively post impact. Some days more than others. On the good days I can aim more directly toward the target, but generally I aim left because I don’t practice or play much… so that is my personal norm. Hogan warming up with the ball starting right would make sense, and as he warms up, his pivot working better the ball could be worked back toward the target.

I basically teach, “hook your way in… cut your way out”… so really the same concept. The hook your way in is easy for me… cut your way out needs the great pivot action from the “stuck” position people describe… which is the right way to do it.

I like the stuck position because I have generally good rotation. The modern swing as I see it… is developing from lightweight gear. If I just swung a shaft with no head on it… correctly… with a pivot driven swing, it would not be moving much faster than a regular driver because I would not be changing the rotational speed of my body. However, if I wanted to whip that disembodied shaft super fast, I would HAVE to disconnect my hands and arms from my body connection and just use a quick flicking action. This is what I see happening to golf swings and it’s quite problematic for accuracy concerns. Golfer’s are going to struggle with accuracy doing that because it’s all timing elements going on. If the clubface is open at P3 and shaft flex is being held, then it should feel open at P4 also… which really eliminates all that timing, flicking etc. I think this is what Ballard would have been teaching as well.

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Do you recommend experimenting with club weight until it produced the desired feel and motion? Also, if i understand correctly, additional weight would be applied to the head to produce heavier feeling club versus adding weight to both the head and grip end. Is that correct?

If you are hitting, then the deadweight of the club is what you are feeling and should be concerned with… because you are hitting the ball with the entire club. Think of hitting something with a 2 x 4 piece of wood. Swinging is more the weight on the end of a rope concept. The rope itself isn’t going to be involved much in the strike… the mass of the head, it’s momentum is striking the ball. Holding shaft flex isn’t the objective in a swinger’s motion. It IS the objective in a hitters motion.

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