Lag … The Right Hip … and Incline Plane

I just have some random questions I thought I’d bounce around here because I respect and enjoy the thoughts of members here way more than golfwrx.

It’s no surprise that golf is difficult for the majority of players. OTT … getting stuck … flippy impact conditions etc …

The goal of ABS is to have the shaft coming from the 4:30 line without being stuck and maintaining pressure on the shaft until post impact.

When I cast a fishing rod overhead … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

When I whip a wet towel on a horizontal plane into a wall … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

When I swing a baseball bat ABOVE MY KNEES … it’s very easy to keep lagpressure.

As soon as I move the swinging motion/hitting motion to the ground (or below my knees in a baseball swing) …. the right elbow is popped outside the right hip in a counterclockwise motion.

For instance … if I do module 1 standing on just my left leg it is perfect. If I do module 1 on just my right leg … my right elbow pops out instead of being tucked in.

Is the difficulty with the incline plane in all motions just that the RIGHT HIP blocks the proper motion?

If I play golf standing on only my left leg … my right hip is subdued and I can easily slot the club deep and maintain lagpressure.

Is it the RIGHT HIP that causes the majority of problems for golfers?

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Welcome back paradigm_shift…

First, there is no such thing as getting stuck at ABS. I love the getting stuck position on the downswing… can’t be stuck enough! The reason we never get stuck is because we then rotate level and aggressive through the strike with an accelerating torso/pivot rotation and then work the shaft low/left/around/ then up. It’s like tightening bolts down on the right and left sides of the swing. Stuck is just a tight bolt on the downswing so we just tighten the bolt at P4 by a hard and level shoulder rotation. The ball flight will then tell us where to aim. If you are not as hard and fast moving through P4, the ball will take off slightly to the right (Trevino). Then we can also adjust out ball position for proper low point. George Knudson was correct when he said “every golf swing has a different alignment”.

Getting Stuck = I don’t understand the golf swing


Trevino must be stuck here… and oh, how open that clubface is!
Well, we are looking at one of the best golf swings of all time and one of the top 5 ball strikers of all time. Anyone preaching these are bad things… open face, flat entry have some homework to do.



As for the second part of your post… the right hip, left leg…
It sounds like you are ripe for the Hogan transition, methodology. Hogan moved quickly to the left leg on the downswing. However, Hogan DID NOT just stay on the left leg for full shots. He used weight transfer from the right leg to the left leg… then rotated through and beyond the strike.

Also the golf swing by nature is a top down motion… gravity is assisting us on the downswing and resisting us into the finish. That alone is working against us. We would be much better off if gravity was pulling us toward the sky… but not on this planet!

Your solution is to keep your backswing rotation intact much longer into the downswing… then just hit with a level pivot rotation later … I would also experiment with moving your ball position back significantly and hitting the ball out to right field for a while until you are getting solid crisp contact. Once there, you can adjust back as your forward rotation gets stronger, or just re align your body to your new ball flight path.

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Can’t remember who it was, Gardner Dickinson? that said when Hogan warmed up, his shots started right and then they would start progressively straight as his warm up continued.

He was also big on baseball and Ted Williams and ‘connection’. Biggest lesson I took from that is his right elbow. It is clearly behind his right hip but pinned behind his right hip from last parallel before impact to just after impact.

Being from the U.K. I was recently astonished to learn that ‘connection’ in baseball is different from golf although there is some overlap. Golf is widely taught as a physical connection of the upper arms to the chest. Basically learned that baseball it is more about the kinematics of the club and the physics of the gyroscope, and stress on the body sensed by the brain; by connecting the plane of the bat (golf shaft) 90 degrees to the spine from transition all the way through impact. And flattening the plane of the bat (golf club) towards the point of the right shoulder. When the right elbow dives in front this is apparently ‘bat drag’ and not ‘bat lag’. Tight, packed upper arms, the Ballard connection of the upper left arm to pec, the ‘Elbow to Elbow’ lesson Venturi said Hogan gave Frank Chirkinian, Babe Ruth, Sam Byrd handkerchief in left armpit: all make sense.

Also makes sense when in Maximum Golf John Schlee said Hogan said all pull shots left you didn’t slot the club; all shots push right you didn’t turn level, you slid. And in my profile pic you see that deep, deep slotting of the club whilst the body is still torqued right, saving its work until much later.

If you take that ‘club down his back’ attitude back to a reference frame of impact, it is at that point torqued way back and wide open. He then loads that right elbow in transition even more and establishes baseball’s connection. It demands a lot of work from there to shut the clubface to reasonably square. A lot of modern instruction says ‘don’t have the club lagged back and torqued open so you don’t need to do the work’. I think that is mitigating clubhead throwaway and loss of stress in the shaft.

All of which - right elbow behind the hip being called stuck - is viewing the swing through a 2D perspective; giving precedence to 2D geometry over the physics and dynamics of managing the elasticity of energy in the club, the body and of the collision with the ball.

It’s more athletic to swing in the manner of a Ben Hogan (and Knudson, and Trevino, and Furyk and others). Being ‘stuck’ is an important dynamic. Hogan actually internally rotated his right upper arm in transition transition.

I’ve always felt you have to have ‘pull’ in the golf swing to have lag and a stable clubface. In Pelz’s short game bible he promotes ‘pull’ by longer followthroughs. Percy Boomer said it was pivot. Homer Kelley said shaft stress. Ben Hogan said the shaft was ‘90% of it’. He supposedly told Weiskopf it was a connected pivot. Burke said Demaret said it was shaft stress. Schlee said it was lagging the clubhead with a leading right elbow.

For me I can hit any club, including driver, off a tight lie, if I’m pulling. Pulling via pivot rotation not handle drag pull. If the clubhead is thrown then it could be fat, thin, loss of low point and divot control. Loss of stress sensed in my right hand mainly.

Again, getting ‘stuck’ helps in so many ways.


That is a tremendous post… thanks for sharing.

Can’t remember who it was, Gardner Dickinson? that said when Hogan warmed up, his shots started right and then they would start progressively straight as his warm up continued.

I had never heard this… but it’s exactly how I have played golf for many years. I have always been very flexible in my alignment for this reason. Hitting it well on those really special days is all about my pivot working aggressively post impact. Some days more than others. On the good days I can aim more directly toward the target, but generally I aim left because I don’t practice or play much… so that is my personal norm. Hogan warming up with the ball starting right would make sense, and as he warms up, his pivot working better the ball could be worked back toward the target.

I basically teach, “hook your way in… cut your way out”… so really the same concept. The hook your way in is easy for me… cut your way out needs the great pivot action from the “stuck” position people describe… which is the right way to do it.

I like the stuck position because I have generally good rotation. The modern swing as I see it… is developing from lightweight gear. If I just swung a shaft with no head on it… correctly… with a pivot driven swing, it would not be moving much faster than a regular driver because I would not be changing the rotational speed of my body. However, if I wanted to whip that disembodied shaft super fast, I would HAVE to disconnect my hands and arms from my body connection and just use a quick flicking action. This is what I see happening to golf swings and it’s quite problematic for accuracy concerns. Golfer’s are going to struggle with accuracy doing that because it’s all timing elements going on. If the clubface is open at P3 and shaft flex is being held, then it should feel open at P4 also… which really eliminates all that timing, flicking etc. I think this is what Ballard would have been teaching as well.


Do you recommend experimenting with club weight until it produced the desired feel and motion? Also, if i understand correctly, additional weight would be applied to the head to produce heavier feeling club versus adding weight to both the head and grip end. Is that correct?

If you are hitting, then the deadweight of the club is what you are feeling and should be concerned with… because you are hitting the ball with the entire club. Think of hitting something with a 2 x 4 piece of wood. Swinging is more the weight on the end of a rope concept. The rope itself isn’t going to be involved much in the strike… the mass of the head, it’s momentum is striking the ball. Holding shaft flex isn’t the objective in a swinger’s motion. It IS the objective in a hitters motion.


Some really great stuff here - I can relate to the warmup “pushes” and a strong tendency for thin shots too, which I feel is mostly a result of a body that hasn’t woken up.

In terms of shaft vs. club head/face, shaft stress, etc, it seems to me that the hands move the face and the body/core/big muscles move the shaft (p3-p4)- thinking about shaft speed, as in, the top half of the club has helped to instill a stronger body move/pivot/OP.

Excelentes publicaciones!!

I’m not sure how de la Torre messaged his training aid but when I first saw the image hitting or swinging came to mind. If all the heads are hitting at the same moment that could be good thing instead of the golf ball end of the club slinging by the hands.

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In regards to my original post …. today’s YouTube video about having a straight back leg in the backswing (like Moe Norman) totally subdued my overzealous right hip from popping forward too early. My right hip stays deeper longer and gives me room to swing on the 4:30 line.

I’m new and u sure as of yet about posture recommendations here with advanced ball striking… But…

Tush line seems important for elbow position relative to the clear passage of your arms. While I whole heartedly agree with John’s first reply to you … The arms attach to the torso and rotate level through the strike accelerating and not stalling… There is a posture that opens that space more.

Opening that space up for me is important while I’m working on adopting advanced ball striking because I have 20 years of firing my arms at the ball and I still want to play somewhat competitive golf. Having that free passage gives me a later release of the club if my body stalls and my arms out pace my body.

How you open that space up for free passage, or at least the way I feel it, is by having your tush line close to your heel line. If your tush line extends past your heel line ( a more squatty posture) you will tend to rotate flatter and close that space. The more vertical your tush line is to your heel line, the more that space will open up because your torso is bent over a little more giving you more air for your arms.

One look at jim furyk (whom I believe has been identified here as a hitter, could be wrong) and it’s apparent that the space is not needed whatsoever. For me this is a godsend. I’ve been saying I was stuck forever and feel the club release as my body stalls. John’s method hits home with me in so many ways, that being One of many.

I was watching John’s posture in his right knee video and can see that he naturally stands more erect with his legs and his tush line is close to his heel line. And pre positioning that leg removes that squatty position which opens up that space for your arms (that they no longer need if our body turns hard and level)

Thanks for the reply. I’m going to use a mirror and check today. That may very well be what has frustrated me my entire golfing life.

I’ve only been able to slot the club properly playing on my lead leg and obviously my scores have drastically improved this way.

I think I agree with all of this.

If I try to swing normally with both feet … I’m so used to having my ass extend past my heels. The club doesn’t want to slot from the poor positions I get myself into.

I just noticed that to balance myself on my lead leg (which has produced a deep 4:30 line and my best golf) my lead leg is fairly extended/flexed and my ass doesn’t extend much past my lead heel.

When I tried John’s straight right leg in the backswing … just like you said … my ass doesn’t extend far past my heel. Slotting has space.

I am having a very hard time internalizing this as my thoughts would be the farther I have my butt in back of my heels (to a reasonable extent) the more room I would have to get the club to the 4:30 line.

A bow to the 4:30 line will open up the path on the downswing… or what we would call spine tilt. If the torso is too upright (caddy view) on the downswing, then the arm path is essentially blocked off from the 4:30 line and the player will either come OTT or feel “stuck” on the downswing. The modern cure would be upright clubs with lots of offset which then would lock in that move forever. Two bads don’t make a right.


Absolutely…move the ball back slightly (maybe more) and do that hit out to right field… works wonders and creates a strong ball flight.

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Yes it does. It will really add pressure into the strike…

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Great thread. I’ve been working on module 3 intentions for a long long time. The only think that really clicked for me was a video that John put up with Be Better golf .

Where he had the student 430 cup line it as a drill. And from there thinking of the body pivoting as the hands stay passive. The open face cup will be closed by the body versus the hands. The left shoulder and left hip has to be wide open at impact. It was a real revelation for me. And granted I can do this with the 430 drill pretty well. But when I get top of transition it’s still a major work in progress. Could take many more seasons to get this down path. I’ve always been a stall thrower of the club. So thinking pivot squares the face still has trouble computing for me. Makes perfect sense and seems like it would be a real power and accuracy move for sure. I did find a great training aid to help assist with this. It’s not affiliated with Advanced Ball Strikers modules by any means. But it really does get the idea of a proper pivot swing and orbit pulling in check immediately. It sure is no easy task changing a release style that you used for over 4 decades of golfing

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George Gankas teaches a pivot motion like you are describing. I took a lesson with him a while back. I was hooking the ball off the planet after that lesson.

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I was watching the video from John Ericsson I posted above. He does a thing where the arms stay on the right and you square the open face by the body turning open hard.