Golfwrx article: alternative view on bifurcation

[jrich99]

golfwrx.com/71287/a-case-for … furcation/

Let’s take 0.83 COR limit off for the amatuers, and let’s make a golf ball that flies further. We know we have the technology to do this, so let’s open it up. I mean, we have aluminum bats in baseball. We just don’t let the best baseball players in the world use them. Sound familiar?

With hot golf balls and hot drivers, the sky is the limit for how much fun golfers can have. Wouldn’t it be fun for the 240 hitter to hit it 280, maybe 300 yards, just to see how the pros play the course? Sure, 15 handicaps will still struggle with direction and distance control, but it seems we might interest a LOT of people in playing the game when they have the chance to reach a par 5 in two.

Rather than acknowledge the issues caused by allowing the professional game to spin out of control, let’s just make the amatuers hit it farther. 7 hour rounds anyone? 7000 yard courses are fast becoming obsolete with the equipment as it is. Why make matters worse by juicing up the amatuer equipment?

We know the game is much less appealing when we ask most golfers to play shorter courses, but perhaps they equipment itself would allow for this to happen.

Golf needs more players. To do this, the game has to be more fun. I, for one, would like to see a golf ball and a driver that goes as far as is technologically possible. This is a win/win situation. As a teaching pro, one of my responsibilities is growing the game. I can think of no way better way to do that than to giving the average golfer more distance. At the same time, manufacturers would probably sell more balls and drivers each year since they would be free to make clubs that significantly boosted performance. We all would win.

Lag talks about it all the time, but I really don’t get why anyone thinks golf needs to be easier. How much less appealing will golf be if amatuers are hitting it 350 and courses are 8000 yards ten years from now? I don’t want to spend all day on the course to get 18 holes in.

Why make the game easier? Chess is played under the same rules and with the same board and pieces regardless of ability level. While advanced players have access to more levels of technical complexity, even novices play the game under identical rules. Instead of shrinking the board to 36 squares and simplifying the pieces, beginners learn the same game so that they too can enjoy the higher levels accessible through experience.

Rather than making amatuer golf the equivalent of tee-ball or bowling with the bumpers up, how about embrace golf for what it is? The complexity and challenge, combined with the natural beauty, is what separates golf. If you’re not into that, there’s always the latest addition of “Tiger Woods PGA Tour” on PS3 Xbox.

[daleheck]

I was reading the comments on that WRX post, quite a division of opinions. I became a persimmon and blade convert
as a direct result of this thinking/‘promotion’ of the game. Hell the pro that duped we into the last driver i was’ fitted’ for
$600.00 later, had we convinced there was no need to ‘struggle’ to learn to hit a 2 or 3 iron with all of the ‘hot’ hybrids available,
now at 52 yrs hold I am learning to flush them, repeatedly… and rediscover playing shots.
I doubt that the typical weekend amateur has this inclination.Thank god for: ‘seek and ye shall find’ and here I landed, never happier and more enriched in this wonderful game. Hell, as it is the course traffic and delays are nearly unbearable with out adding another xx yards to the tee shot. I will continue to show up with my old sticks and do my best to toss the seeds of promotion for traditional golf wherever I play.

Dale

[Addington_Arnie]

Let’s take 0.83 COR limit off for the amatuers, and let’s make a golf ball that flies further. We know we have the technology to do this, so let’s open it up. I mean, we have aluminum bats in baseball. We just don’t let the best baseball players in the world use them. Sound familiar?

With hot golf balls and hot drivers, the sky is the limit for how much fun golfers can have. Wouldn’t it be fun for the 240 hitter to hit it 280, maybe 300 yards, just to see how the pros play the course? Sure, 15 handicaps will still struggle with direction and distance control, but it seems we might interest a LOT of people in playing the game when they have the chance to reach a par 5 in two.

This is unbelievably stupid. As jrich99 says I can imagine the carnage on my home 6,200 yard Harry Colt course as unrestricted balls start flying all over the shop from hyped up space age artillery. There is nothing “fun” about it, it will bring no-one to the game and would be positively dangerous. About as bone headed a suggestion as I have seen for some time.

[dairic]

Luckily, from the comments posted, it appears that most people are against the idea which means there might be an audience there that could be receptive to a more sound message. Lag or TM as Golfwrx contributor?

[lagpressure]

If weekend amateurs go from hitting it 250 to 300 as things are now… then the pros go from hitting it 300 to 375. Then the amateurs are going to wonder what it is like to hit it like the pros who now hit it 375.

Making the ball go farther actually hurts the short hitters. They simply fall farther and farther behind percentage wise.

History is not going to look fondly at this era of golf. If one steps back and looks at what has happened with any kind of sensible objective view, this era is going to look really silly and ridiculous to future generations. It’s not a legacy to be proud of.

The bifurcation has already happened. There are now persimmon players playing persimmon tracks and acknowledging the distinction as being very real. While not popular, it does exist. I always mention it to people I play with and teach and show them the difference.

[lagpressure]

I posted this on the comments thread. I suppose I should brace myself for a plethora of antagonistic replies.

John Erickson

  February 18, 2013 at 4:42 am

  Your comment is awaiting moderation.

  There was nothing wrong with the game of golf in the persimmon and balata era. The game was virtually unchanged from the 30′s to the early 90′s. Even early metal woods played basically the same as persimmon. The game maintained a historical relevance for over 60 years. Sarazen hitting a 4 wood into the cup at Augusta for the “shot heard around the world” was not much different that Jose Maria hitting 4 wood into the same hole 50 years later.

  The thing most people forget is that there was a reason golfers carried long irons. You see, a classic par 72 championship course is typically comprised of 10 four pars. Three long ones, meaning 2,3 or 4 iron approach shots. Four mid range, 5,6,7 iron approaches, and three short four pars leaving 8,9, PW. This was designed to properly test the skill level of a quality golfer, pro or good am player.

  Another point is that the shape of a par 4 and par 5 green are different on a quality classic track. This is due to the trajectory of shot coming into the green. A long par 4 need more depth to accept a lower shot. The par 5 can be designed with a shallower depth adding a risk reward situation. The same lower trajectory shot needs to be hit more precisely into a par 5.

  This whole idea of pros only hitting short irons into 4 pars is silly. Mostly mid irons into 5 pars is sillier. If you understand golf, the pro game is horrifically boring to watch these days.

  Was Rory’s US Open record really such a great feat on a course with light rough and greens that held like a dart board? While it may have been good for TV ratings an magazine sales, it belittles the efforts of the great players of the past. Hogan’s US Open record of 8 under par held for many years until Nicklaus equaled it. Hand Rory persimmon and balata with thick US Open rough and make him play under similar conditions and I can assure you he doesn’t shoot 8 under.

  With the ball going 15% farther, the classic 6900 yard course needs to be just shy of 8000 yards. What is the point?

  If weekend ams hit the ball 300, then the pros will hit it 400. Then you end up with the same absurd arguments.. and then the ams want to know what it is like to hit it like the pros do at 400, then when that happens the pros advance even further and it’s more of the same madness.

  A while back they handed Snedecker a set of persimmon and blades and had him play a classic track down at Hilton Head and he shot 80. He was a good sport about it, and commented how much appreciation he had for guys like Trevino who could use that gear and shoot 66. That is what impresses me.

  Then of course there is the whole other side of playing persimmon, the sound of it… the beauty and aesthetic. All that stuff is missing now.

  Longer courses become cost prohibitive over time, slower rounds, increase maintenance costs, environmentally unfriendly. People should also be encouraged to walk the game. If only for the good of your health.
  I’d rather pay a kid to caddy, and teach him a bit about proper golf.

  Grow the classic game. That I can agree on.

[apples2967]

Briilant

[Paul_C]

This is insane. I have to second what Arnie said, it is downright dangerous out there now, especially on somewhat tight treelined courses like mine. Anymore, teeing it up is like taking your toddler child to Chucky E Cheeses, it’s one big romper room. It’s gone beyond playing anything resembling golf, more just another form of entertainment with lots of on-course drinking. I can’t tell you how many ball marks I fix when I’m out there. It’s shocking, the condition of the greens after a typical Saturday.

Regarding blades and persimmon, which I play exclusively, I don’t view it as a vintage game at all. I find it very relevant on most courses, expect for those resort tracks in say Las Vegas or Myrtle Beach, which don’t interest me. I think if you can hit your driver 250 yards, you can play 80 percent of the courses out there.

We’re continuing to see this trend to lighter gear, lighter golf shoes, the idea that lighter is better. It’s happening in other sports like NASCAR, which starting this year is racing its Generation 6 cars. They took 160 pounds out the car, making it even lighter. I hate to say it but someone’s going to die this year because of it.

[lagpressure]

What I don’t like is when things are forced upon me. I don’t play much competitive golf these days by choice because I truly got my fill of it years back. But if I felt differently, I would not be thrilled with being forced to play the modern game because there are essentially no other options for one trying to carve out a living playing pro golf. A smaller tour with even 1/10th the money of the PGA Tour would be of more interest to me that what goes on today. Fortunately, the proper game still is waiting out there, and there is no shortage of gear designed to work in harmony with the great classic tracks. I do miss the balata’s ability to shape shots however. I agree with Bradley that the modern ball does not fly all that hot off persimmon. We used to really be able to compress the balatas.

Luke Donald is driving the ball over the green on the par4 10th at Riviera?

NFBANDON will appreciate this. I was driving my 71 El Camino across the Mojave desert last month somewhere between Kingman AZ and Needles CA when I noticed the temp gauge was jumping up from it’s normal running temp of 210 up to 240.
It wasn’t too hard to postulate that the thermostat was getting stuck. I could tell the water pump was working, I knew I wasn’t losing coolant. The fan belt was intact and in good condition. I pulled over and found a parts store easy enough. Handed the cashier $7.32 and then took a walk to let the car cool off a bit and found time to take some interesting photos.
I keep a very simple tool kit in the car for such moments and only had to remove two small bolts where the radiator hose connects to the block. Removed the old, put in the new in all of about 3 minutes. Fired up the grand old 454 and enjoyed listening to the rumble for the next 568 miles safely to my front door. My former computerized ignition car would have required being plugged into the scanner. Various codes and so forth being spit out for the mechanic to interpret… giving him the option to suggest a variety of possibilities that usually would have me plopping down a credit card and the typical $800 modern car repair. You can still purchase a lot of gasoline for $792.68. As long as the old basic parts are still available, I prefer to drive a car I both understand, feels good on the road and reigns supreme in power. I also feel safer driving a car with more mass. I doubt Hogan would have survived his accident driving a car made of thin sheet metal alloy.
Like Knudson said, I like the feel of steel. I like having the choice and option of driving a more practical vehicle.

The bifurcation issue stems from the lack of the former option. There is a voice of reason that is resisting things being forced upon them.

[Richie3Jack]

What I think is stupid is that they think the COR limit is the problem for slow play.

My dad has an illegal above the COR driver from Wishon Golf. He doesn’t play for his handicap and doesn’t play in tournaments. So I put one together for him. Looking back, I wish I would have gotten him a better fitting titanium driver in part because the high COR drivers only add distance if the golfer hits the CoG alignment in the face of the driver…which is the size of a needle point. But, he hits the driver pretty well so I never really bothered him with it.

One of the problems is the high COR drivers crack when you reac club speeds above 100 mph. So there’s a decent chunk of the golfing population that can’t use a high COR driver.

I think the course design has hurt pace of play more than anything, but I think it has little to do with titanium drivers. Instead, designers are more into beautifying the course with water and forced carries. Remember when Sawgrass was unique with an island green? Now they are everywhere.

Where I’m more concerned with technology is it makes good courses more obsolete. I think he slow play issue is a different problem to itself.

3JACK

[nfbandon]

Yeah, I did get a kick sitting in that El Camino…as long as I held on tight! The feel, the sound, the smell…made me feel young again.

I don’t want to be an ol’ naysayer regarding technology, but we can be smart about it. There is room for craftsmanship in our computer driven world. Admiring a well made mechanical instrument…a vintage car, motorcycle, a mechanical swiss watch, musical instrument…is a great pleasure. Funny I picked up Zen and Motorcycle Maintenance again after 20 years. Good stuff.

This site has the potential to be something much bigger and better than it is. Some really great folks on here it seems. I hope we can make it more active…and maybe have some ABS golfing outings with John in our future. There is always the cost issue, but it would be really fund to get 11 of us together at a classic site, pay John’s way and compensate him for some instruction and have some fun.

[Paul_C]

‘This site has the potential to be something much bigger and better than it is.’

Been thinking a lot about that lately. This site is incredibly rich in information, stuff found nowhere else. I find myself going back to re-read the genesis threads. I still glean so much from them.

I think it’s time for another epic thread on ballstriking to come into creation. It’s difficult, though, I suspect, to keep the discourse at that high a level as the site gets older. Sometimes I think actually it’s all been said here, you just have to search for it. Sometimes, though I think we’ve only scratched the surface.

I guess it’s for the Major Domo to decide…

[nfbandon]

Well I know the site has worldwide breadth, but the ABS “get togethers” with Lag is an idea I am going to keep throwing out there. You can only learn so much online.

[Craig_Toone]

Its just like that classic psychology question about would you like to earn 100k a year but everyone else 125k, or 75k and everyone else 50…

people want to outdrive their mates. Raising everyones distance off the tee won’t help. Attitudes & ego’s will just be the same, the ball will just go further…offline