Here’s the aim calculation
Not sure I understand having to aim 50 yards right if my driver is sitting at a 45 degree lie angle. Mine is at 48 now. I don’t aim right of the target at all. I can only assume the researcher is not considering the difference between a delayed wrist cock release vs an OTT plunge or wood chop move.
I really don’t think things need to be so complicated. Hit a couple balls without specifically aiming at anything. Look up to see where they go… then adjust your body to anticipate for the direction you have been seeing the ball go. Once you learn how to draw and fade the ball, you then work the ball in the direction you want it to feed toward.
You can spend all day or winter inside on a swing analyzer, but it won’t show you how to adapt to your daily vices.
Golf is more about adaptation than trying to precisely do everything exactly the same everyday.
I agree with you after seeing you play but then again I don’t think you hit up on your driver 10 degrees…
At about 8 minutes into the video shows an example of hitting up with a driver and trackman…Different teacher but same trackman data
But the problem for most people that try a flat backswing is they don’t have the ability to rotate fast enough to make up for the loss of swing radius. Most golfer’s lose distance, don’t have the forearm rotational speed to provide a good deal of power accumulator #3 as well.
Do you think is possible to increase or relearn rotational speed body and forearm as a golfer ages?
Of course. You have to work at it … at any age.
The only argument for young people learning better is typically because they are not as busy in their lives and have more time to dedicate to practicing.
As long as you don’t have any physically debilitating condition or injury, you are free to learn and develop at any age.
I’m on holiday in the UK and played a simple 9-hole par 3 course yesterday with borrowed standard lie clubs. Is there a trick to playing upright clubs when we are working on ABS or should we just forget it? I played the worst “golf” I can remember. First of all the club looks wrong at address and I feel as if I need to adjust to get the toe down. Then my swings felt disconnected and armsy. I was hitting it fat, heel heavy, shanks, and every shot went left (except for shanks). I might be asked to play another game and so any advice would be appreciated. 
Teddy,
Use a tee on every shot and aim right. If you’re playing it off the deck you’re going to hit a heel heavy pull/pull-hook unless you make some big time compensations. I don’t think it’s worth it to start trying to make a standard lie club “work”, especially if you’re simply playing a casual round. Whenever someone wants me to try one of their irons I have to use a tee.
Earlier this summer (before joining ABS) I played in the South Wales Seniors’ Classic regional qualifier at the Woodlake Park Golf Club - amazing greens and bone hard fairways. It’s a 4BBB comp and my partner and I had won it the previous year. This year hadn’t been going well so I got my Comp EZ’s back out of the garage thinking the cavities would be more forgiving. What I had forgotten was how upright those clubs were (from my Dalton McRary “straight shooting” expt - DON’T laugh!). OMG, it was so embarrassing. On one of those rare days when I split every fairway with the big stick I just could not hit a decent iron shot with anything other than wedges with much flatter lies.
Now, after a month of Module 1, I’m even hooking 8 and 9 iron with my 1deg flat MP37’s with S300’s.
Since joining ABS, my son’s two friends, both local club pro’s, have bent an old set of TP9’s 5deg flat and re-shafted them with tipped X1’s for me. They are both lovely lads but obviously think I’m crazy! Had a little try with the 8 iron while walking the dog at daybreak the other day and instantly loved the ball flight. No trace of left at all. Played with a pal against my son and one of these pro’s last Saturday. They had a good giggle at my expense on the first tee of course. The first iron shot was with the 8 iron and went off like a laser with a 1 yard fade straight for the flag. I tried to look nonchalant while thinking “I always dreamed of a little fade and I just hit one!”. My son exclaimed “That’s insane”! The second is a short par 3 and I hit the 7 which pitched 2 feet right of the flag. The looks on their faces were priceless. To cut a long story short, we beat them 5 and 4. Walking to the 13th tee, my son - an assistant pro until the rugby kicked in - was saying things like “See, I always loved my TP9’s when I was a kid - my game never recovered after selling them” and “What you need now is to get some MP 68’s but don’t get a fitting, just tell the guy the specs you want because he’ll never believe you otherwise”.
I gave the Comp EZ’s to one of our juniors for his dad in order to get my Aussie blades back. They’ve got X1’s in and are now 1deg flat. I had thought that these would be my gamers because they’re heavy and stiff. Looks like they need to be a few deg flatter 
. Meanwhile, I love the TP9’s. The mistakes I made were all around taking too much club because I had a memory of them not going that far when they had regular shafts in. I imagined needing one more club than my MP37’s but it wasn’t the case - no idea what the lofts are. I had asked one of the pro’s to swingweight them to D6 but the lead tape hasn’t arrived yet.
So much fun for the “crazy old man” to shut the kids up!
Cheers
John
No offense to Lag as I have utmost respect, but This extreme advocacy of ultra flat here at ABS and the constant omniscient aura that it is the grail requirement for world class ball-striking has gotten a tad annoying.
Having to read ridiculous statements from a self proclaimed internet forum swing “guru” like:
Is sort of funny. I was attracted to ABS as a relief away from zealot TGM boards but it appears at times it was a tradeoff of one cult to another here with this flat/heavy pounding.
Question, How do you ruin arguably the greatest player of all time? One who was on an unstoppable train to supplant Jack’s 18 majors as well as also take #1 in wins on the PGA? Who held all four majors in 2000 (only his 3rd year as a pro) and during this time hit 71% of fairways while also averaging a tad under 300yds (with a metal shaft too!) AND hit a ridiculous 75% greens-in-regulation on modern/fast greens. ALL while having his irons 1°UPRIGHT!
Simple, you take this:
With his NATURAL free flowing upright swing plane,
And force his mechanics flat into this, through Hogan worshipers named Haney and then Foley:
The one on the left (2010) was blocked about 30 yards into rough and hit some fans. One on the right was sliced badly into some cactus trees and had look on his face like he wanted to quit golf(if I remember correctly where I snipped that from 3 months ago). This is completely counter to flatter = straighter as advocated here at ABS. Tiger misses left and right since going flat. Is it the equipment or is it because he is fighting his body since 2004. Equipment is the same lies as 2000 so lets be honest here.
Also, I can think of another arguable best of all time who won ohh 18 majors and 72 PGA wins vs the likes of ABS flat poster children Player, Trevino and other flatters. What was that guys name we NEVER hear of here at ABS anywhere near the words ball-striking?
He looked like this coming down into impact:
Maybe HEAVY I can accept as universal, but super FLAT lies and deep flat elbow-plane for everyone I objectively have a hard time with even just based purely on physical attributes.
And also, we don’t even have 100% proof they even had flat gear. All we have is hearsay and speculation. Hogans former caddie says 1 degree UP, Wishon claims down from eying a much handled 60 year old club at a museum.
Earlier in this thread Bio says they measured Norman before and after changing to a flatter swing and his lie angles tested still the same (UP). Lie angle (where hands are at impact) appears more of a height/DNA type thing rather than beating ones body into.
Here:
Hogan = 5’ 7"
Trevino = 5’ 7"
Knudson = 5’ 10"
They HAD to come in flat. It is a physical fact, no?
All Just my .02 (in USD)…
Haven’t had my normal caffiene dose yet…so just two points for now Budman.
First if both a fruit fly and elephant are sitting on respective tees waiting to be moved down a fairway, how would you do that. Do you think your action would be different given the difference in mass between the fruit fly and elephant?
Secondly, it seems like a slap on Two. The fact that he is here on this forum to even possibly debate your issues speaks for itself. The man is a world class player…has paid his dues…would be wise to listen to someone who has forgotten more than most know. 
Ok Budman…have another cup of coffee and ready for another point.
Nope…I’m 5’7-“although in my minds eye I am 5’10”- and I can choose a narrow or steep entry…my choice for sure.
In fact, I still like my frying pan when swinging…and I like to practice sometimes hitting with flat laminated woods from Hagen. Two different lie angles…two different paths going back. Can I hit with the frying pan? Sure can, but it takes a few adjustments for the lighter gear.
The heaviest one can handle is the way to go in my mind if you want a thrust hit. You wouldn’t bring balsa wood to a nunchuck party would you? 
Completely irrelevant analogy - The object sitting on a tee down in front of us ALWAYS weighs exactly the same… a measly 1.620 ounces.
I did not mean for it to seem that way but debates tend to come out as attacks, especially in written form. The fact that he “has paid his dues” (whatever that means) and why it makes him come across as all knowing of how everyone should be swinging a club (super flat around the body and on a deep elbow plane) and/or constantly suggest there are no good ball strikers in past 20 years is the issue I have. By saying he has “paid his dues” while ignoring that anyone else on tour might know what is best also is contradictory.
There are infinite reasons why it may seem that ball-striking overall has gone down. Is it really so simple to just flatten your swing and make it heavier? I mean COME ON!
Maybe it is the fact that there are infinite combinations of shaft/head/flex/grips now and extremely difficult to get right compared to only a few shaft/head manufacturers in the 30-40’s And with all this wide variety of equipment combo’s to choose from are the incompetent clubfitters, even at the pro level (who still at times measure your height to determine shaft length, etc). Tiger switched to graphite shafts I think it was 2002 and it STILL looks like he hasn’t found a decent one for himself and he has access to pro fitters probably at 3am if he wanted.
This may sound as harsh, but he is HERE on this forum to debate issues because he is trying to sell and promote something. He has it in his mind his way is the only way and it comes out in his posts and videos and he wants to sell you how to try and get there even despite the fact that it will not fit optimally to many people. There is NO one way to successfully swing a club. One doesn’t need to be an ex-Australian tour player to even know (and SEE) that.
Budman,
We have to remember there are pressures occurring in the golf swing, downward, crunching abs, forearm, grip, arm pits, elbows, horizontal, centrifugal and centripetal
Hogan showed us exactly what he was feeling in the golf swing
[vimeo]http://vimeo.com/27919065[/vimeo]
Moe Norman showed us the same stuff of wanting to be much flatter on the downswing
It’s about the pressures created and how when in motion these inner sensations don’t actually come out as the intention feels. Take note of their forearms and wrists…not just the shaft
Then we have to throw in ground pressure and resistance for pivot…Hogan and Moe had two of the best pivots ever to allow them to swing through
Tiger’s pivot is a disaster as he doesn’t keep his knee resistance and rises and stops into steep shoulders and throws his hands into a parallel plane down the line through impact
The people teaching forget the golf swing is a full motion with all these forces applied that we need to cater for all the way until the end…no good teaching one part of the swing and forgetting the rest…if shown correctly Tiger wouldn’t be far off again…and this is another trap of solely relying on lines on video screens… people often look in the wrong spot at times as to what we should really be looking at or concerned with. But people want lines as explanations
I could draw another line on the photo you posted of Tiger and show you that whilst his shaft is flatter his wrist and forearm are not rotated correctly…as shown by his glove on his left hand and where it is pointing…so he has a shallow shaft plane with a steeper forearm wrist alignment…DISASTER…as he can’t rotate the club in so he slaps at is…lots of ways to look at things
Why bad mouth me Budman? What did I ever do to you.?
I am not bad mouthing any of the players I use as examples. I use them because people relate to them and can show differences.
if you listen properly you may learn something? But that’s up to you…I can only give out the information I believe
If you look at Tiger’s left forearm rotation you will see the difference
Budman,
The fact that you start your post with ‘No offense’ doesn’t give you the right to insult people. This also has very little to do with ‘debate’ IMHO.
Nuff said.
There is no extreme advocacy…only real experience from real golfers…pros to hackers. I’m not sure what is ridiculous about TM’s statement. When Tiger left steel shafted woods and the small headed Titleist 3-wood - his ability to control shots started to disappear. Take another look at those pics of Tiger you put up and if you can’t see the lack of connection between the torso and arms, I’m afraid I don’t know what to say.
Budman, we don’t get too hung up on planes here and there is no cult. If you can honestly compare TGM boards to the ABS forums with respect to cult status - I’d say you have the jaundiced eye! If you continue to get annoyed, go elsewhere for a while and we’ll time how long it takes you to return.
Which fortunately is still okay in this country to express, but given the far left bent of our current administration; I sincerely doubt that right will be allowed to continue. I won’t even get started on the fact the copper is worth more than the legal tender of the penny (when pennies were still make of copper) and the Fed has flooded the market with printed money making the effective value of said penny worth much, much less.
Captain Chaos
I think reading comprehension classes may be in order. Is that really all you have taken in on this site since you arrived?! Honestly?! Perhaps I’d give you the benefit because you haven’t sign up for the modules, but I still know how much is in the public area and the discussions there. Nobody here advocates that there is just one way to swing a club!
Harsh? No, you sound like an argumentative asshole. TM is giving his time…a lot of his time for free. Wow, I’ve had issues with your tone before, but this is beyond the pale. I’d suggest taking some time off and just re-read some sections or perhaps catch up on The View, Oprah or some other daytime TV that might make you feel better about life.
Captain Chaos
Chaos…I first thought you meant cutting it left post impact 
If you don’t understand this difference than there is not much more to say as it speaks volumes to me about your overall lack of knowledge, awareness and practical experience with what is being discussed.
Shirley you can’t be serious Who’s that guy from Airplane?
Do you actually think that players competing in world class tournaments get there on a whim or prayer?
Not sure Budman where you get off calling me a “self proclaimed internet swing guru”…I have never said anything of the sort or proclaim to be. I am a tour player who now teaches and give my beliefs based on my experiences.
There are many ways to skin a cat and swing a golf club…I try to offer the best, most reliable one, so my students don’t end up with whiskers, fur and blood and guts all over themselves.
IF you really listened to my videos and read my posts you would always hear me say…The PGA players that swing from more upright can most certainly play well, but it takes a lot of practice to keep that engine oiled as it becomes more difficult day in and day out because of the extra timing involved… Sure it can be done when you have all day long to practice or play and your average golfer who these videos are aimed at doesn’t have that luxury…You seem to want to miss the fact I say that on every video.
You obviously have an issue with something about me as this is not the first time you have had a go at me on this site…A site that isn’t even mine, mind you…I am a guest here offering my experiences with Lag’s blessing…I don’t teach you, you aren’t an ABS student, and you don’t know the full extent of what Lag’s students do as far as modules.
You have no vision to see who I played with in my career and the questions I asked them, what I felt in my swing and what ‘instruction’ did to my swing that allowed me to come to these conclusions and use former and current players as examples…
If I come across to you as an asshole just because I played on tour…then that’s your self inflicted issue… I am all ears as to what tour, Foley, Haney, Plummer & Bennet and these self proclaimed and anointed teachers played? Where did they learn what they believe in?..a book? watching swings? playing real golf under intense pressure to know what stands up best and what doesn’t and what is easier to repeat?.
We can look at things subjectively or objectively.
Hogan, Trevino, Moe Norman- the 3 players revered as the best ball strikers ever…all used flat lie angles
Hogan used irons around 8 flat if you look at his club at USGA house and discount Wishon or “The Afternoons with Hogan” guy based on objective evidence as shown below. I also have a 1948 Hogan persimmon driver that sets up stock standard at 48 degrees
Trevino used 3 degrees flat because I asked him face to face
Moe Norman had flat clubs because lag played with him and spoke with him, and Pure Spice on the site was taught by him for umpteen years
That’s makes things objective and not guessing…I would believe.
The internet is riddled with people who hide behind screens and point fingers…they alas are the ones who never ventured into the real world and got their elbows dirty on the topics they are trying to speak of…so they are subjective in their opinion
I wont enter the debate above but I will put in something I have been thinking about on flat v upright.
Has anyone done the maths on flat v upright and measured the variance in accuracy?..
We know flatter one goes the less face angle changes occur in relation to left/right and more it affects trajectory correct?
Minute of Arc(MOA) is a unit of angular measurement of 1/60th of a degree over a given distance. From my research 1 MOA over 100 yards is approx 1 inch.
1inch x 60 (MOA’s in a degree) = 60 inches variance per degree of difference over 100 yards.
I know we dont swing the club perfectly flat or perfectly upright so bending your clubs 4-6 degrees flat might only affects your face angle variance by 1-3 degrees.So instead of your face being 6 degrees left or right of target it might end up only 2-3 and going higher or lower.
But 3 degrees over 100 yards is 15 feet?.. this becomes more pronounced the further you hit it obviously…
Im by no means a maths expert and if anyone with a maths background can add to this it would be great. or if it turns out to be hogwash please disregard it:) as this is just stuff I googled…