Lads,
I’m not all that sure that flat clubs get it done, I mean clubs were flatter back in the day yet the average guy still had the same issues as today. It’s got to be more of a conceptual issue, understanding the way to approach the ball. Even an upright club has a considerable angle to it, we’re only talking a few degrees here, 10 at the very most, and even that’s a freakishly large number. Even the most upright clubs are still clearly not straight pendulums. There must be some other conceptual issue causing problems. The eyes for example, they think directly. It’s very difficult for them to accept that the club will be approaching the ball from below their radar, yet it will. So maybe flat clubs do aid in seeing that more spinal rotation move… interesting. We still have to realign from the top though, even Moe had to adjust and he got closer than anyone to the 90 degree spinal swing. One of the fascinating things about Moe is that he was set set up and he swung more rotationally than anyone, yet his mental picture was that of a pendulum with the face never leaving the target line. Any thoughts on that? I think that’s fascinating…
Cheers,
B
I always took it that Moe meant very little plane shifting, like a pendulum would offer… he talks about that on the video I shot of him…
There are other instances where Moe talked about dropping under with the right palm up at P3… he never told me he was trying to keep the face square to the flight line.
If you want to experiment with flat lie angles… bend a 7 or 8 iron 54 degrees on the lie angle, drop an extra ball from every 150 marker, and see how many greens you miss left. You can release it as hard as you wish, and left is one place you are not going often.
The module #1 work students do here properly teaches how to aggressively release the golf club, therefore giving the student the flat option if they choose that well beaten path of the great ball strikers… or you can go buy a 4 degree upright iron and keep shooting 80. 
Of course you need good technique, but I see no disadvantages to flatter lie angles, for either power or accuracy.
Lag, how flat do you recommend we should go for us just starting on module #1? Would you say 4 degrees is ok? I think I need to do something quite soon given the last time I went to play 9 holes on Tuesday I was sending many shots to the left, I believe as a result of the drill that naturally is taking me to a flatter plane (or so I think 
).
Keep shooting 80?! Ouch!!.. that hurts my feelings 
I’m actually working on a spare set that I’m going to make super flat to see how they roll.
Here’s a clip where he refers to that pendulum idea… when he says that the club can’t get off line if it wants to is the part I was referring to. It’s always difficult to decipher intentions with this sort of stuff, but I always took this vision for how I heard it. His follow through made a lot more sense to me when I first heard him say this(though this isn’t the clip where I first heard it- it was a while ago now) The intent he seems to have with his clubhead in his follow through suggests that frame of mind. It’s clear that his goal was some sort of singular plane, but I never got the impression that he was swinging under his initial plane- if anything he seems like a poster child for finding your way back ‘onto’ the desired plane. His swing changed a fair bit over his life, and he also seemed to grow stronger in his mind as time went on. I can never discount the power of a mental concept driving the end product regardless of it’s physical manifestation… especially since he became stronger and stronger in his thinking. I’d be very intrigued to hear more about the thoughts he shared with you during your time together if that’s something that seems reasonable…
Cheers,
B
Lag,
Can you explain why this is in more detail please?
NRG,
tee up a driver, drop to your knees and hit a few shots off your knees…
From such a flat plane, try to pull a ball 30 degrees left of target… won’t happen.
From such a flat plane, opening and closing the face starts effecting trajectory more than left and right…
Moe used to tell me he felt like a waiter through impact… “I don’t spill the tray!”
This still frame is typical of what Moe would show me… It’s quite similar to what we work with in module #3 here just on a higher plane.
Meaning, he didn’t feel he rolled his wrists over…
That was his intentions, and for a CF swinger, he did keep the face square longer than any CF swinger I have ever seen.
His turned shoulder plane is what throws most people off, because most golfers don’t swing that way, and try to relate that to their own swing or beliefs.
Moe did swinging right…
Right, got it. An open clubface would hit a ball more up in the air than to the right. Closed face would just go lower.
Conversely if you were to try and hit a ball positioned a few inches from your toes with a near vertical swing plane, any slight opening or closing the face would massively affect direction.
Yes, that is exactly correct…
and as simple a concept as it is… it is very overlooked in traditional golf instruction…
Guys like Hogan, Trevino, Knudson, Player, they all knew this stuff… nothing new…
Upright encourages a more flimsy armsy swing… flat… a body turn …it just makes sense… and the directional factors about pulling shots is really huge. Once you go flat, and get a feel for it… you won’t ever go back… you’ll feel like your cheating, and in a sense you really are… there is no downside, other than you won’t find many cast modern clubs coming off the rack 4, 6 or 8 degrees down…
If you can find some footage of George Archer who won The Master’s over Knudson, he was 6-4 but bent his knees so much that he played off lie angles of a much shorter player… all with very good intentions.
So by going flat, do you benefit more with your Wedge than you do with your Driver, as the Driver is already a much flatter club??
All the clubs benefit, but I think the driver the most, because the flatter the lie angle the more natural it is to work the club around our body, rather than up over our shoulders which tends to disconnect our pivot, unless we re route significantly. It really simplifies the golf swing and offers us something much more reliable and repeatable.
Two 4 irons here. First one is 65 degrees, 2nd is 53.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7207trAzI
I think you can really see what Lag was talking about here.
Great stuff NRG! A practical demonstration like that really brings home the point of how important having the right angles is.
Yes, nice demo. Were the 4 irons the same length NRG?
Well spotted Steb,
The upright one is about an 8 iron shaft.
N.
Lie angle is a thumb print of where your hands are impact…
Swing plane has no effect on what your thumb print is to determine your lie angle…
I use to fit although these days I send clients to the best club fitter in the world and from 35 years of fitting equipment from his experience he has said the same… plane angle has no impact on your lie angle… it about where your hands are at impact…
Greg Norman has used 2 upright for years and his lie angle has never altered even when he made swing changes and e has a flatter swing plane where the club works around the axis of his spine…
If your clubs are to upright for you yes you will hook the ball… although if they are flat you will hit pushes and slices… if your to flat you start making compensation with your hands to try and hit the ball straight and the same applies for clubs being to upright…
To know what lie angle you need you use a lie angle board and this gives you a thumb print of the correct lie angle for you…
My swing is pretty flat these days although my lie angle hasn’t change since i was a junior…
May be some food for thought…
check out the changes in Greg’s swing changes over the years and his lie angles haven’t change
youtube.com/watch?v=rNgIE6fy0CU ( may need to cut and past link in address bar to view).
To determine what lie angle you need get fitted using a lie board this will give you the thumb print to determine what lie angles you need…
Bio,
I bought a Driver from a company called Zevo about 10 years ago. Their big thing was lie angles, and i remember that they used Greg Norman as a case study and explained his swing plane shift being down to a change in his club lie angles.
I (or they) might be wrong, but that is what i remember.
NRG.
I can’t possibly see how changing lie angles alone will change your swing plane. There will be a slight change in the balance of the club but other than that you’re just going to stub the toe or heel more or less into the ground. As Bio said, a change in hand position is also required - it’s only geometry.
I theorizing that Lag’s protocol suits flattened clubs because the arms aren’t active and flying off the body, so the wrists stay low. Everything is tight.
Steb,
Thats the point, unless you change your swing plane at impact, you are going to do exactly that.
Once again, i might be wrong, but thats the way i see it.
NRG.
This goes back to the discussion we have had on this board a couple of times before regarding the role of clubfitting (i.e) do you fit for existing impact alignments (however good/bad) or fit for ideal impact alignments because you believe by doing so it will help you get there over time as you understand what works and doesn’t work in your swing to help you achieve those aligments. So personally I am inclined to agree with NRG on this one whilst recognising that it flies in the face of the “dynamic” fitting orthodoxy of Wishon et al.
Cheers, Arnie