Flat vs Upright

From P3 or the third parallel, our forerarms rotate the club from a cocked and turned position back to square on the ball.
We want the wrists to uncock and the forearms to rotate in unison.

All this stuff is nicely covered in our module work without having to understand the nuts and bolts in great detail. A basic understanding is of course helpful… but you don’t have to learn TGM to be a fine ball striker. History shows us this.

Better to feel and properly execute the biomechanical action than to analyze it with great scrutiny from an arm chair.

Because this is an “Advanced Ball Striking Class”, we would never want to zero out the #3 accumulator in any kind of drill or exercise. Proper clubface rotation from P3 to impact is at the epicenter of our objectives. The pivot and the hands must work in tight unison together.

I completely disagree with the TGM teaching methodology that you learn power accumulators one at a time. I have worked with beginners that can grasp a four barrel strike in one session.

If we are going to work on stuff, we work on great stuff right from the get go.

Lag
I am a little confused when you say maintain wrist cock. Do you mean to maintain a bent right wrist or a cocked left wrist or both?

As a hitter, we uncock the wrists but not all the way like a swinger…by holding our wrist cock we tighten the arc… so we can turn faster… we really want to eliminate the wrists uncocking post impact as much as possible.

Things move faster in tighter circles…

1 Like

I was watching this weekends tournament with the sound down and I saw Matt Kuchar swing. Taller guy with a very flat swing path relative to anyone else on tour that I get to see. I couldn’t catch one at P4. Everyone (commentators) seems to think it is just too flat. In the 3rd frame you can see a blur trail from the club below his right knee.
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Too flat is more misunderstood.

IF… you have the hand speed, AND you are applying proper ground forces, AND MOST IMPORTANT you have great post impact pivot thrust, then it is very unlikely you are too flat.

If you are a pure CF swinger, that pivot stalls post impact, then you could be too flat…

If you are a hitter, and have weak hands, poor ground pressures, and a weak pivot… you might do better with a more upright swing until you develop the proper strength and sequencing.

I think the right wrist bend at PV5 shows good intentions for Kuchar.

Seeing frames between the last two would tell me if he is hitting or swinging…

Lag,
Heard from a little bird he’s playing bridgestone blades with a special tour issue strong shaft.

Hi Lag,

Can you talk about what adjustments need to be made (if any) when attempting to swing flat when playing from rough? I am not talking British Open rough but first cut + where its not so easy to get at the bottom of the ball. I noticed a couple of times at the weekend when I was off the fairway that as my swing has got a little flatter, the angle of attack (is that the correct terminology?) is shallower but in the rough that means the club runs the risk of coming into contact with the grass before the ball. So I guess my question is how do you swing flat in the rough? Is it simply a question of swing more steeply or are there adjustments to be made with ball position than can be tried?

Cheers, Arnie

No adjustments…you’re not supposed to be in the rough in the first place with your new swing. :wink:

You can get a little steeper by simply hitting a cut shot of sorts out of the rough… if of course the shot will allow for it.

Since the ball is not likely to curve as much from the rough, picking it up a bit from an open stance shouldn’t be too far off the mark… if the ball is really nestled down, and you need to get it out with some height on it.

Lag,

Do you have any idea if it’s possible to somehow adjust the lie angle of the newer Drivers, I can’t imgaine how really but I have no idea myself. I haven’t started your course yet (but soon I will, im getting better just by reading your stuff on the forums) but I have been experimenting with a flatter swing and it’s working better than I could have hoped for, much better. There’s no problem associated with lie angle on my clubs from LW to 5W but then with the driver it gets a little funky in some shots and Im not sure if it’s the 58 degree lie angle or just some faulty mechanics, might be both. Do you think it’s more important on the FW than on the driver maybe?
Regards

Jon S.

Well, let me first say,

Welcome from Iceland! I think you are our first poster from the mysterious northern land. What’s the golf scene like up there? Is your season over?

As far as your question. It certainly is a good one. What do we do? I believe the best equipment was made a long time ago. Golf swings were much better, and those swings often evolved from the very gear they used.

Years ago, great players like Ben Hogan were in the club business crafting the finest quality clubs aimed at offering a player gear that was sound from a standpoint of both physics and biomechanics. Now we have clubmakers that are hackers themselves that spend all day trying to figure out how to make a club that will cover up or hide all the flaws of the golf swing. They are simply failing miserably. Now we have faulty swings that get even worse because they are evolving from faulty gear. Perimeter weighting, giant heads, super lightweight clubs are all rooted in either flawed physics, or a very negative bias. They scream, golf is hard, and you can’t do this!

If I were hell bent on using modern gear, I would write all the companies and see if anyone can or has a flat lie driver offering. If not, I would try to get an old one, heat it up with a blow torch and try to bend it. Last option, take it to a welder and have it welded flatter.

For me, I simply re bored an old persimmon, in other words, pulled the shaft, filled the hole with epoxy and sawdust, re drilled it, and epoxied a new steel shaft back into it.

My driver is set at 48 degree lie angle… perfect. Now I hit it both longer, and straighter.

When I get some time, I might try to fish around for an option at least for the guys here who should by now know better… :sunglasses:

It’s a serious problem for certain.

One manufacturer I know of is working on a driver design with an adjustable lie angle.

I never quite understood how we came up with all these “wonderful” drivers that you could alter your ball flight with by taking out a wrench, opening or closing the face, or by screwing different weights in 12 holes put in the head, but somehow lie angle adjustments got left out.

Thank you for a warm welcome Lag! Just want to say that your forums and the epic iseek golf thread was a great find for me and helped me alot. Im looking forward to be on board soon!

What’s the golf scene like up there?

The golf scene here is quite active now and is growing measurably every year. For some reason a couple of years ago golf caught on and became incredibly popular and the larger clubs all have waiting lists that are full of people waiting to be accepted. Around the capital we have what I would say quite decent golf courses and alot of smaller 9 hole ones strewn all around the island of various qualities, some wonderful, others plain. One of my favourite things to do during summer vacation is to take highway nr.1 that goes in a circle around the island with good friends sometime in the spring, summer or fall and play interesting courses along the way. It takes a couple of days and you get to play all kinds of different courses embedded in various types of landscapes and just enjoy the good company of fellow hackers, although Im striving to better myself out of that distinction. It just so happens that altough Iceland is situated quite northernly the temperate climate and weather here happens to make it much easier and cheaper to maintain a golf course than in hotter more humid climates. This has lent itself well to the recent boom in the number of golfers and is the reason why so many, although often small and usually 9 holes, courses circle the island. Just for fun here is an aerial guide from a helicopter over all the holes on my clubs 6439 yard course.

                                                                                          [oddur.is/?id=75](http://www.oddur.is/?id=75)

Is your season over?

Yup, all the bigger clubs just closed. While the season may be short there is an effort on some fine courses to extend the season a little and have an amateur fall series competition that would be launched on fair weather days during the autumn so it’s still possible to play here and there. Although the season is short, roughly from mid may to late september were lucky enough (at least the golfers) to have daylight 24 hours during high summer. I play late alot myself and often go alone after midnight and occasionally with a friend. There are very few people playing if any and there are subtle differences in - what can I say, the ambience of playing, at least for me. Although there is light it is a different silkier hue than during the day… ,and, in good weather, it’s a serene if not tranquil experience. For me, there’s a little more to this crazy game than most I think. To a degree it’s also a form of meditation for me, although my friends tease me alot when I say stuff like that hehe. But alas I digress, just thought Id share a little…

Regarding equipment and lie angles

Well, I thought as much, there couldn’t be any simple way of adjusting lie angles on modern drivers and one will probably have to go to some length to make the lie angles flatter on the newer equipment while having to gamble with ruining the metal in one way or another . One guy I talked with this evening told me that callaway had some sort of system, I don’t know exactly, that had something to do with the hozel that might have something to do with adjusting lie angles…again he wasn’t entirely sure himself, but even then he thought you could only go from 58 degrees to 56 using some mechanical system he couldn’t completely describe.

On the other hand regarding " knowing better" as you say, I admit that I find your views and musing on the game very agreeable, and, altough I’ll save it for now, could write and voice a myriad of thoughts and opinions on the subject myself, although I will voice that what some people criticise as being purist, I would rather call being balanced. Rest assured that I will be adding a persimmon to my arsenal soon. On the other hand I have always practiced with blades so that’s already solved, although as time progresses they may need a little tinkering with the lie angle:)

Lag,
There was an article about flat vs uprights swings i will not mention names where here to learn and share ideas. what determines flat vs upright in your opinion? Does the arm angle have to be below the turned shoulder plane to be flat? What player benefits from upright? Is one more powerful than the other? Does one produce more accuracy than the other? The article showed upright producing more tour victories than a flatter swing? The debate continues!!!

I have experimented with both really upright and more recently really flat clubs.

Here is a photo of me using upright (67 degrees)

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And here using the flat club (57degrees)

DTL 13 Oct 09_0001.jpg

Both are 7 irons, though the upright is cut down an inch.

Both pre-date me joining this forum. And i made no consious effot to change my swing plane, in fact, i only nociced i had recently.

Great post Neil! I think a lot of Lags students, including myself, initially gravitated towards the idea that they would like to flatten out their swing plane first and then move to flatter clubs. So even if we could buy the intellectual argument a natural caution existed in a world where most of never heard of anyone going flatter than *2 off standard. What if Lag turned out to be a :imp: professor :open_mouth: :laughing:

But if we needed reminding that the horse should come before the cart your experience shows the benefit of making the move to flatten the equipment first and then letting your body / swing absorb that feedback. As you said your swing plane changed without particular conscious effort by adapting to the club in your hand over a 10 month period. And this in turn goes to the heart of the critique of modern clubfitting where the trend is unquestionably to fit for what impact alignments you have now (however undesirable they are) rather than what would be optimum so you can learn from them.

Thanks for sharing these pics - great stuff.

Cheers, Arnie

Thanks Arnie,

My experience in experimenting with club set-ups tells me that your clubs pretty much dictate how you will swing them and you can quickly learn to adapt. For instance.

If i went to the range with that really upright club again i would soon be able to hit it straight, i would stand closer to the ball, i would choke down the grip to flatten the club, I would slide my legs through impact, my “Callaway Legs” as some one used to call them. I would end up swinging upright.

When i first went to the range with that flat club, within a basket of balls (that must have been ball 97 if you count how many i had left), i was gripping at the end of the shaft, was standing further from the ball, had widened my stance, was rotating my body more into impact and evidently i had changed my swing plane. I was also pushed back towards my heels for the first time. All dictated by the club.

If you want a flatter swing, i would say swing flatter clubs. Like you said put the Horse before the Cart.

NRG.

Good sampling of great strikers with a shallow shaft plane basically perpendicular to the spine approaching impact.

Given the fact that a rotating core (torso) will be more effective moving more or less at right angles to the shaft… there is a very strong argument for flatter lie angles on golf clubs.

I spoke with Don Ingram today who worked for the Hogan Company for years, and he said that the modern trend promoting upright gear has been a marketing move to better suit the hacker who slices the golf ball.

Rather than learn to swing the club properly, the equipment companies have been in a race to fit gear to bad swings that will offer the quickest aspirin to a poor golf swing.

Flatter clubs make hooking the ball more difficult. However… the more upright a club, the more the player will be fighting pulled and pushed shots…

With flatter lie angles…pushing and pulling shots becomes much more difficult, and a typical OTT move will tend to change trajectory more than left- right dispersion patterns.

It’s a huge geometrical advantage to swing on a flatter plane, and flatter lies also encourage better body rotation in a very natural way.