This is a really hard question to answer. IMO, it all starts with better defining the desired attributes of a particular swing pattern. THIS IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. Here are commonly heard explanations for the “true” or “best” swing patterns:
-Hits it the farthest
-Is the most accurate
-Is the most repeatable
-Hits certain unacceptable shots at the lowest frequency
-Hits acceptable shots at the highest frequency
-Easiest to maintain
-Holds up best under pressure
-Is the most bio-mechanically sound
-Is the simplest
-Provides the most feel and feedback
-Has the most clubface control (face square longest)
-Will hold up best as the golfer ages
-Works best given a particular injury
-Uses physics the best
So let’s say you could actually define and rank each of these things (except for the physics one - the physics don’t change): for example say one pattern is “highly accurate” and “very rarely hits a wild shot” but “low distance” and “low feel” then we could develop a formula where it get a 9/10 for general accuracy, 8/10 for max wildness, 3/10 for distance and 4/10 for feel, etc. We would have to find a golfer with this exact swing pattern and monitor a million shots from a million different health, weather, course conditions to develop statistical distributions the fully define each pattern so we can rank it in each of the categories of interest. Then maybe we have our own personal preferences so we assign correction/scaling factors the formula… you see where I’m going with this. It’s impossible.
Since you can’t “prove” the relative merits of any of the above factors the discussion will always be reduced to generalizations, basic models, and anecdotal evidence / case studies. One of the reasons I gravitated to ABS was that the idea of “intentions” lets one set aside the ideas of what the club is doing and trust that if the desired intentions are applied - good results will occur. This is more of a “black box” model where you don’t need the specifics of the formula or 3D doppler radar, you plug in certain intentions and you swing spits out certain results. This takes great TRUST, and there is no reason to believe you will converge on a solution the longer you toil. Other reasons I prefer many/most of the ABS principles for my swing are that I feel greater consideration is given the the probability of hitting an acceptable shot and the probability of hitting a very poor shot. I also feel it is supported sufficiently with case studies throughout history to provide enough proof to be considered closer to optimal (as I define it based on all those factors above).
It’s just a lot easier to say: “Mike Austin hits far, his swing is clearly the best” or “Corey Pavin is very accurate, his swing is the best”
More like 2 feet at 6 out not that that really changes anything… Yeah that’s got something to do with it but everybody I ever talked to about this, Ballard, Ken Venturi, Johnny Miller, Tom Quinn, Bud McVey, Keith Tycheson, Jon Leavitt, Bob E Smith, Roger Dunn, Paul Runyan, every single one of them say if you’re going to Chase the God Move the absolute single most important thing is working the face square to the target the whole way thru the zone. They all got different variations and POVs but that’s the one thing ALL OF THEM agree on. And most of them and I put myself in this camp agree that attempting a lateral bow is necessary but you gotta be realistic in your expectations. For the most part you’re Chasing the Yeti and NOBODY consistently does it for real. This of course will get me ripped in Fantasyland again but its the truth. Somebody, anybody show me five swings in a row of anybody ever bowing the shaft back between P3 & impact. And don’t throw in that horseshit where the shaft gets deflected back by impact itself. Or the bevy of excuses like “the clubhead was accelerating faster than the camera shutter could open & close…” That goes in my personal Worst Justification Ever Holy Cop Out Batman Hall of Fame. And there was like four of you guys defending it. You’re all in Looney Tune Cooperstown for that one… But the point is that yeah its important to try to try to bow the shaft back and yes that does about nine things and every one of them is excellent but it rarely if ever actually happens even for the best of the best. And 100 more important is the way the face works thru the zone. That’s what its all about. The rest is exactly what it is, a bunch of guys going science class… None of you would care about any of this noize if you had just hit 14 fairways and 18 greens. You’d be talking about how you just hit 14 fairways & 18 greens and either be ecstatic that you shot 64 or really pissed you shot 70. Hello reality…
Ballard = Hogan = Sam Byrd - That’s pretty potent stuff. I really like how Jimmy Ballard defines the shoulder area for the turn.
Which makes sense. Each player is different, but in order to control trajectory and where the ball starts…you have to return the face to the ball the same way each time. Btw, how large is the “zone” you are talking about and does it extend past impact?
First timer here and I this maybe the answer to all my issues.
I am a 5 handicap and have been fading between a 3 and 11 depending on how i’m hitting the ball, and by hitting the ball i mean not shanking it. That is right I am full blown shanker and have been for the last 5 years.
I started golf with all junk bladed clubs, then moved onto Ping ISI’s (red dot) and played those irons for about 6 years. I was getting better although always hit a 10 to 20 yard draw. I assumed this was due to the heavily offset on the irons and my flat swing plane. I still believe I’m right about that…
This brought me to a set of mizuno MP 52’s which were stock. I hit those amazing and for about 2 months played some great golf. I then went to a Titeist demo day and fell in love with the Titliest ZB blades and gave in and bought them. This is where it all went down hill. I started off playing good not great and then the shanks started. Fast forward 2 years and i’m still shanking the ball once a round. Note: Titleist are 1.5 degree more upright then mizuno and ping red dots.
I then went to my local golf shop and was fitted based on my six iron. 1/2 degree upright on some clubs and 1 upright on others and some were standard. This was all based off a titliest chart they had.
I then started working on more of a one plane swing. I have always had a flat swing so it didn’t take that long to really get it down. One thing i did notice with my new swing was my new stance and posture (more athletic knee bend, less upright). With this the toe of my club was standing straight up when i’m at address. I’m a very feel player and can adjust easily and i then started lifting up to make better contact. With that though came a really bad case of the shanks. This has been going on for 3 weeks and i can’t even hit the ball without hitting a really low draw/ snap hook or a shank. If i choke up a lot, the toe doesnt stick up and i can hit the ball pretty good.
After reading all of these posts i don’t think i’m going to be able to sleep, i’m going right to the golf shop tomorrow and will be trying 2 degree flat irons! Wish me luck and any insite would be greatly appreciated.
Hard to give quality advice without seeing your action. Flat swings need flat gear… bottom line. Swinging on a flatter plane through impact is a huge advantage in this game if you do it right. Players that know this don’t go back. While it is not necessary to play good golf… it sure helps.
Getting your gear set up in a pro shop is fine if you have no plans on improving your golf swing. It’s natural to adapt to the tools in your hands… so I suggest researching a bit and figuring out what are the best tools. Good place to start is with the great ball strikers of the game. Look at what they did.
Also research the difference between hitters and swingers. Lots of good info here on this site for that.
Option 1 - Hogan - ish, Sergio - they have a model or low left arm position at the top and a great closed counterfall transition which puts them WAY DOWN close to the original shaft plane LINE early. From there this type of player uses both hands and right shoulder to steepen the shaft back into the ball while also squaring the face.
Option 2 -Nicklausian - Watson - They have a higher left arm position at the top. Same great counterfall, but because of the higher position at the top, they never get the shaft as close to the original shaft plane LINE. Therefore they cannot hit as much with the right shoulder and instead soley use the down pressure from the arms (modern teaching is coupling this with a jump - to increase the pressure).
Both will work, just preferrence - personally I double shifted out with an loop in… since I am getting older
I try, and it is way easier for me to even go in then out with a reverse loop with minimal arm travel and minimal shift. Looks strange but it is for me the easies way… Option 1 is just my personal natural way. My personal feel is that the backswing has in my case only the purpose to come into a position (slotting) from where I can go…
I know there are lots of variables involved like Height, flat swing. deep slotting, divot patterns, etc…
Lag, could you or anyone else describe the process you went to determine how flat to bend your clubs? I believe Lag says that he plays at around 6 degrees flat from standard…
You don’t have to bend your clubs flat to play good golf… but if you understand what the geometry of flat lie angles can offer, then you should go as flat as you can.
Flat lie angles will allow you to swing the club flatter which will naturally work the shaft more around your body so that you can then use pivot power on the downswing correctly.
Flat lie angles is not limited to how you swing the club now. Popular club fitting theory suggests you fit to a player’s often horrible swing. In this case, the player then becomes imprisoned into their faulty OTT move.
Clubs with lots of offset further imprison bad technique.
If you do go into flat lie angles, then you need to learn how to move the body to make the new flatter gear work.
The body will tend to adapt over time, and for some, the benefits can be instant… but generally speaking, one will improve and this is a good place to hang out to learn a lot of tips on how to make it work.
