There’s another new league record… The first time Dustin Johnson has ever been referred to as accurate. Betcha I’ve played Pebble 150X and I had no idea you could hit it OB left on 3, how on earth do you start it 100 yds left on a right to left hole that banks hard left even if you’re going for the green (which is insane even if you are that long, remember that 7 Tiger made in 2000, that’s what you’re begging for by bashing it down there. And even then there’s no OB unless you aim at 4 green)??? That’s awesome all around.
Why does everything have to come from a “hitting v swinging” debate? They are both terrible and have nuthin to do with nuthin. If I was going to study Taoism I sure as hell wouldn’t start out with Scientology, I’d start with something that actually meant something.
With this going back & forth here’s a question, when you get that deep into the slot like Hogan & Knudson did how come they didn’t stick the club in the ground? Even though it’s flat?
On DJ, yeah I foresaw that there’ll be comments like what you’re saying. That’s why I included the word “overall” right after the words “distance and accuracy”.
On your question, read my posts. That’s exactly what I said the main issue will be. You’ve got 2 options. You can swing left hard to avoid the ground…or you can adjust your clubhead’s lowest possible plane in DS to impossibly hit the ground and to be exactly on the ball…
You sound like my esteemed colleagues… “If you’d have bothered to read my 450 pg dissertation on albino pygmies of New Guinea then you’d understand…” Easy does it, I read it. Now call me old fashioned but I believe in whatever gets the face pointed at the target as long as possible and that ain’t it. There’s some interesting stuff but its timing dependant and all over the place. I would love to hear your take on Hogans left wrist at address which you’re dying to get into. And what’s with all the rules and generalizations anyway?
Svs
thats why I put those circles on the pics… to show much the flatter entry allows the hands to stay in… like we are hitting from the right pocket as Trevino, Knudson spoke of
From there you dont HAVE to try and hit HARD LEFT… you body just wants to get out of the way
The steeper the shaft or vertical it is on the down move the more the hands want to get away from the core… and the more the body ceases to allow the club to get worked onto the ball with the hands and arms
Shallower/Flatter keeps hands in closer and then forearm rotation is used with a more level turning torso and shoulders… the cut left occurs because of the better club/core togetherness… not from trying to pull left with the hands as TW is trying to do on his practice swing right now
I agree. But I thought DJ and MK are just to show the uprightly shoulder turn with connected R armpit. Apparently they haven’t dealt with that issue, which can be definitely solved.
You can still have upright shoulder turn with a shallowing or more shallow shaft, like Hogan. The steepening shaft is a compensation for that main issue. Another compensation is humping the goat or straightening the spine angle.
The right arm (elbow flex) has three basic options through the impact arena. It can actively push or straighten with muscular thrust. It can be passively pulled straight by CF. It can pull against CF and remain bent.
Which one are you subscribing to? Or is there some other esoteric option beyond common definitions ?
TGMers would catalog the first as hitting, the second as swinging and the third as nonsense.
I would say first one is nonsense, second is swinging, third is hitting if torso rotation and forearm rotation are properly activated.
I like the third, what you call the Hitting part, which TGM calls nonsense…lol…But I thought we are using TGM-based definitions…I hate TGM-hitting…I like their Swinging more, but with a combination of what they call nonsense and what you call Hitting…but I like an upright shoulder turn, not a flat one…
IMO, a swing level and swing low and left feel/intent is a compensation for a lack of L side extension…and/or a clubhead that will be under plane or that will hit the ground…I mean, you will hit the ground if you don’t swing low and left/level, and/or you will fall on your face or towards your toes. So, if you have sufficient L side extension and your clubhead is in such a way that it is impossible for it to be under plane, there will be no need for the swing low and left feel…
svsv
I agree in left side extension…we teach that here on drill 3…the rocket launch to PV5…left side ab crunch…whatever you want to call it…you wouldnt know that cos you dont know the way myself and Lag teach
As for Hogan having steep shoulders…sorry but I dont see it??..when are his shoulders ever steep?
Hogan cut it left and low with level turning better than just about anyone…from shallow flat approach with clubs with leading edges as sharp as knives
If you rotate your plane line out to the right… like Trevino did… then steeper shoulders can work fine… but you will lose a bit of power and distance. You can still keep connection that way and hit the ball straight as Trevino did. I have a few ABSers going that route with good results.
But if you start aiming right with steep shoulders… forget it.
Yes, agree that shifting the baseline right will cost some distance…because of bit later release. But shifting it left with the low left release will cost accuracy. And it’s difficult to hit a draw with it, you’d have to aim right quite a bit.
Not saying either. Why not inline? With a CP type release. So instead of swinging low and left, why not swing perpendicular to your stable bent over spine angle? You’ve got the benefits of both shifting the baseline right (CF type release) and shifting baseline left (CP type release)…best of both worlds…
The main issue mentioned earlier is what limits people to the flat vs upright and hitting vs swinging protocols. The hybrid is possible IMO.
If u disagree, John will be the first to listen to ur view, agree or challenge it. If John challenges ur views, have all ur ducks in line my friend, because i doubt you have the nuance to go head to head with John as to how the swing works
I still trying to work out Hogan’s vertical/steep shoulder movement??? and his CP inline release???..and how the guy regarded as the most precise player ever could be so accurate and powerful and have such distance control with a left/low/level turn through impact
These discussions are good. There are many ways to swing a golf club and play great golf. Is there a best way? If your body can execute it… then yes. The other alternative is to compromise your body limitations around various movement options.
Or, you might be surprised as to what you can learn through training your body slowly over time just as in other athletic disciplines.
Only if you are hitting, because to properly hit and hold shaft flex you need to keep pressure on the shaft through both forearm and torso rotation. The power loss comes from loss of thrust post impact, because a properly executed torso rotation post impact has much greater potential to add both velocity and thrust to the clubshaft than a steep shoulder combined with a deltoid lift. The steep shoulders work better with a swingers CF release because most swingers will use a pivot stall method to trigger the release of pre impact shaft flex into an inline impact condition. I’m not trying to sound wordy here… but the main difference between hitting and swinging has to do with shaft flex. A hitter holds shaft flex to impact while a swinger times the straightening of the shaft basically at impact or lowpoint. So swinging works fine as long as you can do it. Personally, I think swinging is VERY difficult to time day in and day out… especially if you are traveling and your body is feeling very different day to day.
I would say because it is too hard to line up straight all the time. I prefer to offer much more flexibility in alignment protocols so that you can instead ultimately use shot shaping and intuition to work the ball back toward your target through deviations in ball flight patterns rather than trying to laser line every shot. I like allowing myself to be off and still feel like I can find the clubhouse at the end of the round. Snead was correct when he said “Dance with the gal yer brought”
I have no problem with shifting the base line right… I teach that to many students early on. A back trending ball position with what you would call a CP release or I would call an orbit pull release is fine if you move the ball back or right in your stance and then hit out to the right trying to hold off the clubface closure. That’s a good action in my opinion.
But as your swing develops, and you create more and more pressure on the shaft… lag pressure, and your angles increase through dynamics, then you will have to move the ball forward because your lowpoint will dynamically change.
I vary ball position and my plane line as described above from day to day depending on how my body is feeling. Trying to aim straight and hit perfect golf shots all the time is too difficult. That’s a steep slope into a dark hole in my opinion.
Sure you can always compromise… you could try to combine a cushy riding Cadillac with a Ferrari. Put the 700 HP engine in the cushy car… or put the soft suspension in the Ferrari. But you always are compromising something.
I like to hit the ball straight… and stack the cards more toward the accuracy preference. Then get my distance from working my two main rotational motors. Strength is easier than trying to time something every day. The golf muscles are different. Going to the gym and bench pressing 200 pounds will get you nowhere.
You will lose distance with both swinging and hitting (per your definition) because you delay the release. You can’t full release if you shift the baseline right thru a CF-type release. In the shifting baseline right CF release I refer to, you rely mainly on the throwout of the club, and this would necessitate a delay in release with the upper body assembly because you sort “lateral” you hips more. Are we on the same page/definitions? Apologies if I misunderstood your baseline right reference.
Yes, hitting (per TGM definition) will cost distance much more because it is so hard to maintain lag pressure or shaft flex with the more lateral hip slide and delay in upper body release. The upper body waiting will leak out shaft flex. But IMO in swinging you ALSO lose distance with a shifting right baseline CF release vis-a-vis singing CP-type baseline left or inline release. In short, you cannot FULL RELEASE with a baseline right shifting, at all.
THat’s why I am not for baseline right at all. It is easier to swing though… IMO better for less athletic or physically limited golfers.
However, neither am I for baseline left, because of what I said earlier. So I am for Hitting as per your/ABS definition, but definitely not for Hitting per TGM definition. However, I hate the swing low and left intent. It will curve the base plane line. Why not make the base line as less curved as possible with a more upright/steep shoulder turn that is perpendicular to a bent over spine? It provides the fastest shoulder turn because of a stable spine angle and upper center, and with the HELP OF GRAVITY. So by inline I mean a straighter or less curved as possible base plane line or clubhead path. Problem is, you have to have a consistent and stable bent over spine angle, which is hard to figure out even for advanced players.
No, I am not for the traditional CP type back ball position. I am for forward ball position. By CP I mean turn the pivot hard from the outset, full release…no pivot stalling to whip through the shaft/hands…and by inline I just mean the OBJECTIVE is to have a straight base plane line as possible thru the pivot and in turn thru the shoulders and in turn through the arms and in turn through the L wrist hinge not uncocking prematurely early and no face closing fast…
I think I pretty much admire your teachings, just happen to not prefer the swing low and left bending the baseline left a bit…but I am sure it is ok to disagree at times, and I have no problem with it as you are.
Maybe this video (which I am in no way related or affiliated with the author/proponent), will more show what I am advocating…enjoy…
How exactly is the “truth” ever supposed to emerge when the entire argument is nothing but deviations from two fatally flawed models that have no redeeming values whatsoever? How does the debate ever progress past simply pointing out how & where the basis models are so completely wrong? And by all means feel free to keep putting me & my perfectly valid reasonable arguments in your imaginary box just because I do understand that toe dip and a lateral press are apples & oranges and that I am comfortable with the concept of “No Solution”, that’s fine by me.
And since when is keeping a lateral shaft press more important than keeping the face square thru the zone? I must have missed that day in class but I was under the impression that the most important thing bar none was keeping the face square, then shallowing out the AofA and THEN the lateral press. I can see switching 2 & 3 kind of because they both come from similar places and intentions but squaring the face has to be the most important because you can have a press and a shallow reroute at the bottom and still flip it bad with a huge pivot stall. If Hogan was here right now wouldn’t he say that none of this analysis is necessary at all if you understand what creates flush square contact?
