Facial Expressions

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Just for you BOM :smiley: couldn’t resist after seeing the pics above

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if whatshisname can’t fathom that difference in swing type and club fitting being connected then I officially give up…but we will of course hear the well the “Cink is 6 inches taller comeback” which means nothing

You are what you eat and your swing becomes what you play

That’s great. What I love about those two is that Trevino thought Hogan was the only one who could strike the ball properly, and Hogan thought the same about Trevino. Pretty good character witnesses I’d say.
I often think that the obsession with raw clubhead speed in the modern game is one of the main swing wreckers because it gets everyone throwing the clubhead. It then just becomes this thing at the end of a stick that you’re trying to fling as fast as you can. It’s such an overrated and incomplete reading of what is and should be going on. That dtl pic of Cink captures the image of that flung clubhead really well.
Obviously Cink is a great golfer and he knows how to win, so that’s not the debate. But that’s the subtlety of the discussion that some people can’t seem to get a grip on.

Two,

Quite the contrary. I agree with you that Stewart Cink’s shoulders are steeper and his hands are higher through impact compared to what both you and I would prefer to see. However, Cink’s somewhat unique swing technique does not prevent him from playing excellent golf as his record proves. That’s the point I’m trying to make - one does not have to swing using a specific method or technique to play excellent golf…or be an excellent ball striker. Cink is obviously not be the best example of a pro that has a unique golf swing (which we don’t much care for), but there are many pros with all sorts of swings that do not fit the mold you (and I) desire that are indeed great ball strikers with great results. I acknowledge this position whereas you are unwilling to do so. My contention is - one does not have to swing a particular way to be a great ball striker. Your contention is - one must swing a particular way to be a great ball striker. Please feel free to correct me if you disagree with my understanding of where you stand on this.

GL…little confused on this end.

Who is “we”…and in terms of the “I”…are you stating that Two, and yourself, have similar views about desirability?

GoLow- again you are confusing good golf scores with ball striking ability…no-one has ever said these guys you continually use in conversation aren’t good golfers.

Trevino and Hogan were regarded as the best ball strikers ever by 100’s and 1000’s of outsiders and insiders of the golf fraternity…and they had fairly good records as players to match :smiley:

Cink is not recognized as a premier ballstriker…either is Tiger or Mickelson or many others you want to name— is it co-incidence they all do what Cink does because they use upright equipment that is light

I have old pics of Tiger and Mickelson that also show when they were younger they swung the club more around themselves with much better left release and less flip roll when their equipment was better suited
Of today’s modern players that swing closest to Hogan & Trevino with their angle of attack and line into ball and release and shoulder pattern - Garcia and Furyk come closest to the Hogan/trevino model I used as an example- are they not recognized as two of the most consistent premier ball strikers of the past 10 years?
I don’t know their club specs but I would suggest their clubs are flatter than most to achieve their downswing, impact and thru swing alignments… it is obvious

Some golfers such as Nicklaus or Weiskopf or whomever probably used upright clubs- I know that for fact- but they had overall club weight and swingweight in their favor to allow them to make a nice turn left release and not a flip roll like today’s modern equipment caters to.

It’s a losing battle you try and promote because history and fact prove it- good golfers are a different species to good ball strikers and the majority of the golfers we cater to don’t have 8 hours a day to beat balls and time their swing…so we try give them a better format that is easier to re-produce

hence again- why this site is called ADVANCED BALL STRIKING…

RR,

I’m pretty certain that two doesn’t care for Cink’s golf swing…or at least he doesn’t rank it anywhere near the top. This is my opinion also, therefore if I’m correct about Two’s opinion then yes - we both agree. Where Two and I have different opinions is - I do not believe one has to swing a particular way to be a great ball striker…whereas (I think it’s clear that) Two believes one must swing a particular way to be a great ball striker.

Thanks for the reply GL. You addressed the “I” portion of your statement. Who is the “we” you referred to?

Now about Cinks action. Presuming you and Two are on the same page- what do you see that’s wrong with Cink’s action and what would you recommend Stewart pursue to make his action more ideal :slight_smile:

Im sorry but I’m not sure on what GoLow brings to the discussion neither. Clearly lacks of humility and it’s bothering to have to read that. I feel bad for people like Lag and Two who dedicate a lot of their life to the game, played with the best, even beat them, and have to deal with someone that want to explain them who is a good ball striker and who is not. I don’t say that you (Go Low or Styles) should acknowledge everything single thing they say but it seems like you don’t even listen to what they have to say, don’t try to understand their vision.

It’s just the way you talk that is really bothering that’s all. If you don’t understand then ask them, I mean they come almost everyday and will answer most of the questions, how great is that?! Ask them why in their oipinion people like cink, mickelson,etc… were able to win majors and they will answer you ( they did already many times actually). And if you think they are wrong then come with your theory and try to explain us constructively why they can be as good ( or maybe better?) of a ball striker; I think the numbers don’t prove it (ball striking numbers I mean) but we can still hear you. I mean that’s the minumum you can do to at least show some respect to their work…and to the other people on the forum interested in learning.

I remember you saying somewhere Bubba Watson is a great ball striker , he played a driver of the deck on 18 at the Mercedes Open and curved it 90 degree… Well that’s not really the definition a good ball striker to me . Could he repeat that shot under pressure on Sunday and pull it out 95 % of the time? then yes that would be something… But you can’t judge on one shot, ball striking is about how well you control your ball flight shot after shot no? I would even argue that he decides to curve his balls so much on every shot cause he can’t hit it straight shot after shot…Obviously very talented no doubt about that!

Very well said. I think they should have their own thread and see what kind of discussion they provoke in eachother. They could call it ‘The Gentlemen’s Thread’.

RR,

The “we” is both Two and me…assuming we both agree that “we” both don’t much care for Cink’s swing. I thought that would have been self-explanatory.

I would not say that there is anything “wrong” with Cink’s action because it is his individual swing, which he has acquired and it has produced a high degree of success on tour. That said, I don’t care (even more so) for the swings of Bubba Watson, Tommy (two-glove) Gainey, John Daly, Matt Kuchar, J.B. Holmes, Carl Petersson, Nancy Lopez, Natlie Gulbis, (and the list goes on and on), but it is “their” individual swing and in all likelihood if they tried to change their swing method or technique very much they would not play near as well. In fact many of them would end up selling life insurance, teaching golf or working in a pro shop. This point cannot be stressed enough in my opinion. I believe every golfer needs to find and “own” their individual swing instead of trying to swing a particular way. I think that teaching for beginner golfers can only go so far before the golfer himself finds out what works best for him…then a good teacher can fine-tune and tweak the golfer’s unique, personal, and individual swing to become the best they can be. And I would suggest that the golfer see a good teacher that has the same or similar swing philosophy in his teaching methods to match up to the golfer. For example, I believe it would be a mistake for (lets say) a young Jack Nicklaus to attempt have tried to swing like Ben Hogan, or a young Lee Trevino to have take lessons from a teacher that teaches S&T.

GL…thanks for the reply. But I guess I didn’t see an answer to the question presented, which was: what about Cink’s action makes you think it less than desirable, and if you were teaching him, what would your recommendations be to make his action more desirable? :slight_smile:

I personally don’t care for how Cink appears to have very little bend at the hips, and he appears to come out of what spine angle he does have, and he appears to move into a full uncocking of the left wrist (ulnar deviation) at impact instead of beyond impact with his high hands. I would not change a thing if he was happy with his swing. However, if he came to me and wanted to change his swing I would work toward changing the things just mentioned. I would definitely not suggest that he change his personal swing method.

A lot of the problem is simply a hitting vs swinging debate.

Go Low and Styles are CF swingers… hanging out in a hitters forum. It must be like a Packers fan sitting in the 10th row at Three Rivers Stadium.

Swingers are simply not going to understand a language the don’t know. This language is a body language, internally motivated. It’s not positions or what you read on a swing monitor. It’s a completely different universe to approaching the strike of a golf ball.

What happens is that swingers think they can gain some insight into improving their swinging technique by applying just a few concepts that hitters do… but this is flawed thinking. It’s about as logical as thinking one can exchange parts from a Volvo into a BMW seamlessly and without issue.

Swinging and hitting, while there are some compatible components… many are not… so the debate rolls on for those without full knowledge of the two differing protocols.

You don’t like Cink’s swing but there’s nothing wrong with Cink’s swing? :blush: :blush: :question: :question: all within one sentence