Evolution of an Impact Position

I don’t quite follow the Hogan comparison here because Hogan didn’t whip it inside… so of course his elbow would work differently.

I agree that an out to inside method would require less effort to slot it… but sometimes effort is good because it is tangible and one can feel it.

Littler’s shoulder action post impact was not as flat or level, so yes, he did dump it a bit… but I see no reason why he could not have rotated level from there. Senior whips it inside also, but cuts it hard left post impact as good as anyone ever. So I don’t see an incompatibility issue at all.

Personally, I don’t pull it inside because I like to feel more of a loop into the slot. I prefer feeling the clubshaft flip over my right shoulder at transition then pressure it more from there… but I am still learning to superslot it… and this for me is helpful. I like feeling the right elbow into my side the whole way… so my hands work inside but the clubhead stays outside much longer before it flips up and over with the shaft.

I do suggest some students take the outside to inside route if they struggle here… but if they can slot it fine by pulling it inside… then I have no problem with that because other great strikers have clearly shown it both possible, but also highly effective.

Some of the Superslotting students here have been changing their backswing paths because of what they are feeling at transition and the need to assist that is very real. I am a big believer that the backswing will develop more individually and organically as proper impact dynamics improve. There are just too many different backswings that end up right in the slot at P3 and worked over correctly to P4. Golf swings can look very different… yet be very similar through the impact arena.

Been reading these posts with interest, and thought of the “stick ribbon”…watched a youtube video, and realized that BOM’s post on " Nautilus…" a few days ago was a stick ribbon competitor, viewed from above.(slow on the uptake here, originally thought it was someone poking a hole through paper)

Could the stick ribbon be a potential training device for the swing??

Heck…maybe it IS a sport.

I have read enough of your excellent posts on here to not take any of them the wrong way. I’m here to learn and improve, not say I’ve mastered anything, so of course my golf swing is a major work in progress and will be for years. I would prefer to have a more traditional loop, but my effort has been more directed at the shoulder turn and lower body issues I’ve had for a long time and finally seem to have eliminated. I would agree that it’s easier in principle to slot it from a more outside backswing. It’s just going to be such a change that I want to do it the right way (through module 6 drilling for an ABS student) rather than try to force it on the range or the course. My backswing is slightly less inside than it was 6 months ago, and I am guessing 6 months from now it will look slightly more traditional. One thing I have definitely felt in the last few days while working on the super slotting module and hitting shots on the range and the course is that when my intention is to really slot it, I naturally take it more out to in. By flattening my shoulders out, I’m now in a position to try and slot it deep without worrying about blocking the ball. I’ll get some more video soon to confirm, but my suspicion is that by working on the slotting, I will end up there naturally. Those in the SS module can attest to the fact that it helps to develop that type of transition.

As for right now, I’m entering my competitive season for school, so I won’t be actively working on anything radically different. Any changes that occur will be a product of a lot of drilling.

The point isn’t about whipping it inside or not whipping it inside, it’s more about the functioning of the right arm. Getting it ‘slotted’ off the ball, with the right elbow in a pre-impact state, has a strong tendency to produce the opposite when it matters. You could argue that Snead and DeVicenzo ‘whipped it inside’ going back, their downswing shaft routes over their backswing path, but they stayed strong with the right side/arm/elbow, then slot it in coming down. I don’t know anything about the super slotting stuff, it seems to be a new enough idea here, so I can’t comment on it or what it’s goal is.
The Hogan photo is used as a comparison because he’s often used as a ‘flat’ role model, but his right arm and shoulder have quite ‘upright’ characteristics deep into the backswing, even though he does end up being quite flat. In my opinion, it’s these characteristics that allow him to be so good into the slot. The photo below shows the area I’m talking about, even though he is very ‘flat’ he stays quite high/dowminant with his right side, relative to his left. And it’s that relationship that’s key imo.

That’s cool man, I appreciate the post. You’re obviously working on good stuff here, good luck with the season. This is just an area that interests me and I’ve had some spare time lately to check back in here so I figured I’d give my two cents. You’ve clearly made a lot of improvements so keep at it…

Everything is a sport, Eagle, you should know that by now :slight_smile:
That’s a good idea, it would probably be a good way to train transition and slotting. I’d say it would be surprising how involved the whole body would have to be in moving it around. It might be a bit misleading through impact though. Interesting…


It makes good sense what you are saying. The right elbow has been used by many as a trigger for slotting the club. Nicklaus,
Barber, Chi Chi come to mind.

What happens with some students here is they fly the elbow a bit and then never tuck it back in. What we are working on is slowly developing the strength to work the shaft from a deep slot and then be able to get back to square on the ball via the two major rotations. So for now… we are just making sure we get the shaft there and learn to develop those muscle groups so that later down the road they can have any backswing option to choose from and not have to rely upon a backswing momentum sweep down into the slot.

Anyone can learn to slot the club quickly, but you have to learn to pull the sword from the stone to strike the ball well from there… otherwise it’s a slot- dump - stall - flip action that becomes a timing opus.

There are essentially two ways to slot it. One with passive hands that would require more of a momentum trigger… loop or like you are suggesting using the right elbow to sling back inward which moves the right forearm more clockwise.
The other is to actively use muscular involvement and literally crank it down in there using forearm rotation.
While I prefer the later and prefer to do that through transition, I can also strike a golf ball very well from a stagnant deeply slotted position at the top, void of any backswing… just stop, hold for 5 seconds, and strike from there which proves to me that one technically does not even need a backswing to be part of the flow of a golf swing.

I remember watching Mac O go to the top of his backswing… have a conversation with a student about something, then come down and just stripe it. While I don’t recommend that people have a pause at the top of their swing… and I don’t negate the benefits of flow to slot the club, I don’t feel it is biomechanically required to deeply slot the club and strike the ball with good compression. What is required is a whole lot of forearm strength. What I couldn’t do a year ago I can do now simply because of strength.

Yeah, I suppose I see it differently perhaps. I’m seeing Hogan, Snead, and DeVicenzo, etc., do the thing I’m talking about, not just the extreme versions you mention. I see it as a natural action, and an athletic one. Granted, it requires effort to contain the force coming down, but you can hinder the process I think. I was reading over Bradley’s thread a bit after he posted that picture of him and Norman- in my view they’d fit with what I’m talking about. But he has a quote early in the thread where he says something to the effect of ’ I held the right arm/hand strong into the backswing and didn’t set the club until I could feel the weight of it in transition’. That’s beautiful in my opinion, you can do a lot from there. I completely agree that it requires real work after that, but all that being equal and as it stands, shouldn’t the best way into the slot be the most do-able way? There are lots of different shots to hit in a round, a tournament, a career, it should really be as normal a process as possible in my opinion. What separates the golfers from the rest is the journey through the zone, but the process to get to the start of the zone can be easy or hard.
I hear what you’re saying about leaving the elbow out there, and I can’t comment on the work you’re doing with your students. But I’d bet that they can perform that slotting action quite easily in other contexts.

Let’s look at Miller Barber… would this epitomize what you are talking about? I mean taken to the extreme?


But he is textbook at P3.


Then uses a swinger’s release.

Certainly some things to ponder here… some funny commentary, some very ignorant commentary, and some spot on commentary.

[youtube]- YouTube

I obviously was lucky enough to get to play golf with a few of those guys on the ‘strangest swings’ video… the ball obviously told a different story

One of my faves was Eamonn Darcy…he really flushed all that came before him the day I played with him… Mark James (not on the video) but has been classified as a ‘strange swing’… same thing…the ball came out of the middle of the club ALL day long with accuracy
The commentators on that are obviously saying stuff to get a rise…but all of them would trade their ‘beautiful’ swings to look up and watch the ball flight of those ‘ugly swings’…in a heartbeat


markjames copy.jpg

My fave has gotta be Jimmy Bruen…must be something in the water over in the 'Auld land(s) of the UK

No that’s not what I’m talking about. It’s not a top of the backswing position, it’s more about the journey or transformation of the right arm during it’s way to the slot. The two Hogan photos I posted in that side by side epitomize what I’m talking, but the list of ideals endless. I’ll post a photo of Byron. I see it as common to all good golfers, and any athletic action involving rear side acceleration. In simple terms, the right elbow travels higher and wider during the backswing, and lower and narrower into the slot. From a technical perspective, if the downswing involves containing CF, or narrowing the arc, and you’re already narrow with the elbow arc in the backswing, it becomes a very difficult proposition that involves a lot of conscious manipulation. I’m a good athlete, and something I’ve learned over the years is that the things I do normally aren’t always normal for others, so I get that things have to be trained. But I think the thing a person is training does have to be some sort of normal process in the general scheme of things in order for them to eventually do it. Narrow to narrow is messy in my opinion, wide to narrow, or high to low can be felt. Same to same is very difficult.
These photos are when the left arm is at the same height back and down so it they show the transformation of the right arm very well. It’s not rocket surgery, but I think it’s important.

The UK?! Jimmy might be getting out of his grave to chase you with a hurley stick with that kind of talk. I’ll let it slide this once!

Yeah you are right Bom… I was thinking GB & I but wrote the UK instead.
Will make it up by making that video for you tonight lol

“rocket surgery”…that’s street slang for a urologic procedure isn’t it?? I hear it takes years of intensive training. :laughing:

I really like Jimmy Bruen. I’m not quite as dramatic at the top, but my haphazard mess up there feels good, and stems from my youth in wanting to hit the ball into the next county. Hell, I had the Daly loop a doop drop before he appeared on stage. Have tightened things up considerably, but I have always enjoyed my haphazard mess because it gives me a sense of freedom…but…more importantly a sense of more time to drop things where I want them while the body is preparing for the mustard on the hot dog.

Little inside curvy hot dogs…not the straight ones. :laughing:

Wouldn’t Miller Barber be the most dramatic higher to lower narrowing into the slot… along with Darcy, Bruen? Nothing wrong with doing that. It would certainly help the passive hand approach through transition.

In a way, but it’s not what I’m talking about- as I was saying above, I’m talking about the natural process of the right arm. And I never mentioned passivity either, I mentioned consciousness. It’s the passivity required by the narrow to narrow elbow arc that necessitates too much conscious effort in my view, and is very hard to travel from shot to shot with. What I’m talking about is anything but passive, it’s very active and involved and you can actually ‘do’ something, because you have to ‘do’ something, as opposed to the thing you’re ‘doing’ being ‘doing nothing’- that would be passive and very conscious to me.
Do you have any idea what I’m talking about or does this all sound like Russian?(I’m assuming you’re not fluent in Russian… this isn’t Russia, is it?)

The flying elbow allows the hands and forearm rotation to be more passive in transition because the looping of the right elbow does the job to slot the club. So, sure, the elbow is active and doing something but the wrists and forearms can be more passive. If the elbow is tucked in more, then it is more difficult in a way because for one thing… the backswing will be flatter, and unless forearm rotation is actively induced, there will be a loss of range of motion. So one way or another, it’s best to get that elbow tucked in on the downswing.
Obviously you prefer to actively loop the elbow as many great strikers do. Nothing wrong with that. Some players like to feel the elbow in tighter on the backswing to feel that connection and then they actively rotate their forearms through transition instead of initiating it with a looping right elbow. Either way has it’s advantages and can be done effectively.

I’m not talking about a flying right elbow, I think I’ve been clear enough on that. But fair enough, your point is valid that it’s best to get the elbow tucked on the downswing, that is paramount to pretty much everything. And the best way to get that done is the best way to get that done. As they say, one man’s poison is another man’s cure…