Current PGA tour

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
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Styles, I’m not sure why you continue in the fashion you do. <rhetorical - because I really don’t care what motivates you anymore> Lag has stated his positions, his hypothesis, and his thesis based on experience…period. He hasn’t stated that today’s PGA tour golfers aren’t good golfers. There is no arguing that they can score!

However, the courses and equipment have changed dramatically and Lag is stating those factors are catalysts for the modern golfer. That said, I think it is safe to say that most of us at ABS fall into one or more of the following categories:

  1. the enjoyment of an older and (arguably) more pure version of the game. A game that rewards shot making, imagination above raw power and excellent putting/wedge play.
  2. dedicated golfers who want to improve and see conflicting issues with how the game is taught and subsequent lack of improvement with modern teaching. A player who sees a direct correlation between ABS work and improvement vs. getting a golf tip and range ball beating.
  3. golfers of every stripe that love the civility of this forum. An extremely unique place in an uncivilized 'Net.

I can see your troll-like stylings are making friends and influencing people as usual.

Now, I’m off to visit a celibacy web site because I think they should learn the error of their ways. :wink: I wonder how I’ll be perceived?

Captain Chaos

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As i and others have said, the teachings and ideals of ABS are not at issue here. I take umbrage at the generalizations that any touring pro would get his ass whipped if he played John.

I think the sweeping statements that everyone on tour is crappy are much more disrespectful than anything I say on these boards.

I am stating my opinion on the “current pga tour” - the title of this thread. It would seem that the only reason you watch it is to complain about it. Isn’t that the same thing you are accusing me of? :wink:

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Golf is going to split into two games at some point in the future. The splitting of the games fiber is happening as we speak, and ABS is only one small segment where this is visible like a two foot crack in a 2000 mile earthquake fault. There are a lot of people out there that understand this needs to happen. You hear about it on the golf channel… on the PGA Tour telecasts, on the Feherty show… in clubhouses, bars, caddie shacks… internet forums, and don’t forget the Hickory movement.

As painful as this will be to some… it will happen. Not everyone is a sheep following the suspicious guidance of the almighty USGA. These organizations will ultimately be doomed to fail because very little of it is sustainable over the long haul. Courses are going to go under. Maintenance to upkeep the modern agronomy standards is not sustainable. The green fees are not sustainable through poor economic times. The equipment companies will eventually not sell enough clubs to keep their doors open. PGA TOUR purses are not sustainable. When the dust settles… the frying pans and long putters are going to look pretty silly in hindsight… as will 8000 yard golf courses.

The great courses will win out over time. There is an inherent quality to them that is undeniable. Real golfers who understand the game are a special breed. They are intelligent and think clearly enough to not be persuaded by poor decision makers. They often are in favorable financial position and have the connections and skills to facilitate change rather quickly.

I have confidence the right things will be done, and I do believe there are special powers at work to see that this is accomplished.

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Being from Down Under, and being a little behind the times, which is kinda nice, we didnt enjoy “pay Tv” when i was growing up. The only golf on tv was the 4 majors. I use to get up at 5am, so excited to watch the stars play the toughest course of all time, so the papers use to write. In the week leading up to a major, the newspaper had plenty of stories on the up coming event. Always they wrote about the demands of a “Championship Golf Courses” I use to be in awe of these stars taking on these beasts of courses. I remember before Larry Nelson won at Oakmont, how they said it was going to be the toughtest course ever . Larry holed a 60 footer after hitting a 4 wood to the par 3 16th, final round, i will never forget. Watching Watson battle Nicklaus at Pebble "82, inspired me. The Legend of David Graham at Merion was enough for me to hit another bag of balls. Then the Shark emerged, led all 4 majors in *86 at some wonderful golf courses. Augusta, Shinnock Hills, Inverness and Turnbury. Im trusting my memory here, but i think its right. I know he only won 1 of those tournaments, the Britsh Open, but it was so much drama, so exciting watching the Shark navigate the fairways of of such great golf courses. The fact that Jack, at 46 could compete and win was incredible, in 1986, persimmon and blades. I do recall he had a massive headed putter thou.
Point being, today i have pay tv, i get every round of every tour live every week, They replay them all week too. I may watch the Final hole, sometimes, other than that, it bores me. It’s 200 yard 7 irons, by everyone. Rough simply not there, greens immaculate. I see the god awful swings of many on the leader boards, every week. I catched some of Ishikawa last round this weekend, i think he missed 12 fairways, he was leading. No idea where he finished, but im sure high enough to earn more than triple the average yearly wage, good luck to him and all that get it. But please dont tell me this is Championship Golf. This is an exhibition, but not of immaculate iron play and searing drives. This today is simply an exhibition of power and putting.Put these guys at Oakmont and Nelson would still win, IMO.
I agree with Lag, not for any other reason then what he says rings true to me. Today they are playing par 68’s. The fact that there is no rough, its prob closer to being par 66’s. There are no penalties, just smash it ANYWHERE and u Will find it, and You will have a clear shot, and IF u DONT, we will send an official to make a new law, so u get ur free drop, ( Phil under the OOB fence)
I wonder who of the Stars are game to enter this years Canadian Open. Im keeping my fingers crossed that no paper bags have changed hands and yet again they will prepare a proper Championship Golf Course.
My alarm rings now only for early tee times or god forsaken work, but never for the telecast of the next installment of BS they still try to tell me is GOLF, not in my book .
Steve

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Steve I agree that over exposure has not helped golf but please don’t be tricked into thinking that 20-30 years ago no one ever missed a fairway or green because it is simply not true.

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And you say you’re not making strawman arguments… :unamused:

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how’s your swing coming along Teddy?

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Greg Norman’s ball striking in the persimmon age was far superior to anything we see today. Being one of the longest drivers, but also hitting over 70% of his fairways with a small headed persimmon driver was just amazing stuff. And remember, he did this over the course of an entire season on tighter fairways and more difficult courses… you would be hard pressed to see a player today have similar stats even on their best week. Notice his putting averages are way down. Of course he is hitting more greens, but the leading players today are relying much more on putting stats than ball striking stats.

Interesting to see that this great year of golf yielded less money than a mediocre touring pro today makes finishing second in a run of the mill tour event.

You could take any of the guys today with the swings they are using, put them back in 1989, hand them a small persimmon block, and you would not see this kind of performance.

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These aren’t your original assertions. It’s just the latest sh!tstorm you’ve created by your rather large mouth and trolling antics.

Is Lag allowed his opinion? Has he backed up his beliefs with knowledge, anecdotes, and facts. He never said everyone on tour is “crappy”. How many strawmen are you going to create and “burn” down for a false narrative?

You have to be trolling as nobody could read the measured remarks here and continue on the tack you are taking. Styles, your arguments are not compelling. The current state of the game, the stats, the history, the equipment, etc. do not support your assertions.

Captain Chaos

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I couldn’t agree more, Steve. It’s a bomb and gouge/putting contest. I love the game, but cannot/do not relate to what is played on tour. Tour golf has lost it’s soul and it threatens to destroy the game as we know it.

Captain Chaos

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I’m as much of a fan of Greg Norman as the next guy, but GN’s greens per round average here is 12. It seems like a fair thing to comment on, though some think that discussion challenging the message is mere trolling. I think I’ve been around long enough, and contributed fairly enough, to be afforded the benefit of the doubt. Some of the history and the stats seem to support the idea that Rory et al aren’t all that terrible, at least statistically- not that I’m a huge fan of stats.

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Norman’s stats here are entire season averages. I think it’s common knowledge that Norman’s driving was the strength of his game then. He was also a very aggressive player and a pin hunter… quite different than someone like Curtis Strange who really focused on fairways and greens and playing the game quite differently… equally as beautiful in my opinion. A lot of Norman’s iron shots were roll offs onto fringes with tight pin placements… but I don’t think his iron play was necessarily the strength of his game. He did seem to lose his iron play when under pressure in some of the majors… like what happened at Winged Foot and Augusta on the 18th. But again, these are season averages… not just one week. I can assure you Norman had weeks of phenomenal striking with much higher stats when he was really on. I saw what he did at Royal Melbourne… I don’t think anyone could play golf like that.

Also, the greens were generally smaller, and players were hitting lower trajectory shots into the greens that took much more precision to execute properly. Rough was much longer even at typical tour events, courses with more trees and OB… which you rarely see today. It’s not uncommon for today’s tour players to hit less that 50% of the fairways and a much higher percentage of the greens. Phil is a perfect example of this.

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There are a lot of topics on this forum.

This is the only one I bother with. If I were truly trolling then Id be creating problems on every single one, so I am not trolling. I just completely disagree that todays pros are not worthy successors to those that have gone before them. They are fitter, stronger, more athletic, much better at putting and scoring in general.

I can understand that some of you don’t like the direction the game has taken but do not take it out on the players.

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Styles,

No one is saying you don’t have a right to your opinions.

But there is enough evidence available to support my belief that if you hand the modern players the gear used by the last generation, they are not going to fair well.

The courses now are more wide open, the rough is not as high, the greens roll truer, conditions are more homogenized, the clubheads are bigger, the ball goes farther, longer lighter clubs can be swung faster, boxy grooves make shots from rough easier. Hybrids replacing long irons. Players now are hitting mid irons into 5 pars. Higher trajectory shots are coming into the greens.

All of these convenient luxuries whittle away at the skill level required to play golf on a broader palate of golfing conditions. Therefore the modern players are not being challenged properly to allow them the opportunity to develop their golfing skills to the best of their abilities right across the board.

They don’t learn to putt on slow bumpy greens… or learn to putt heavily grained greens. They don’t learn to chip from high rough or play off hard pan. They don’t learn the ground game, they don’t learn to play fliers from the rough, nor do they learn to shape the ball into the greens with the modern ball.
They don’t learn to hit out of poorly manicured sand. They don’t learn to drive the ball straight. They don’t learn to transition the club properly, then don’t learn to strike a golf ball from their true core due to the long lightweight gear. They don’t learn to use their legs and feet properly due to poor golf shoes and spikes. They don’t learn a precision golf swing.

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Agreed :smiley:

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I know this post was to Styles, but there isn’t even a crumb of remotely worthy evidence to support that. There’s been two or three ‘rounds’ played by modern players to pretty sad effect, agreed. But you’d have to give them a year or two with the gear to then conclude that they are definitively lesser golfers and unable to use it. Put any ill fitted club into someone’s hands and they’d struggle first time out. Put some whippy shafts etc. into your clubs and take some weight off them, and you’d struggle because they’re not suited to you. I’m not arguing that the modern gear and the modern game is fantastic, but the players themselves are very good at golf. Some are better and worse than others, and some may not survive the cut, but most would find a way to get it done, that’s just basic human nature, we’ll adapt as best we can.

Re: GN, I’m well aware that it’s a yearly stat, but a stat is a stat, and your point was to make little of Rory’s 12 greens a round as the new ‘great ball striking stat’. There are many rounds where he’d have plenty more than 12 a round too, just as GN did. The fact that GN’s 12 greens a round was 17th overall is also telling. It seems that there are no stats from the past or from the current game that don’t fit your views or ideas about things- if he misses greens it’s because he was known for his driving, not for his iron play. I could say the same thing about Rory. It’s a fairly loose claim that the greens were smaller too, I’d like to see some sort of empirical evidence of that. The greens may or may not have been softer, though I doubt it in any significant way, particularly in the US. In terms of Mickelson are anyone else missing more fairways and hitting more greens, that’s essentially down to the fact that the game has changed and hitting it miles and missing a fairway or two more, produces better odds, I’m not debating that fact, nor do I like it.
The Canadian Open last year gets referenced a lot- I didn’t see it, but what isn’t mentioned is that someone still won the tournament, and great golf was still played. Surely that speaks to some ability within the field that they could go out there, on a course set up ‘properly’ as you say, and still shoot good numbers. Am I crazy to give them credit for that or to see some genuine golfing ability in them?

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I cant completely agree with that statement either but i see your point. Not one single tour player would take 2 or 3 yrs to get use to equipment never never never… If the driver dosen’t go 290 … in the garbage. If the greens were a 8 stipmeter and bumpy… the USGA,PGA or whatever Tour would never hear the end of it never never never the players would demand change. This is a now era they want excellent conditions… i know i’ve been priveleged to be in a board meeting on modern day course setups and requirements.Tiger woods tested 100 scottys before he felt one was right 100? They get what they want when they want and whenever they want it… so 2 to 3 yrs to get comfortable with a club is outrageous! Now on a funny note.
If you love Golf and enjoy playing it and watching it it is what it is… trying to compare Babe Ruth to Braun, Walter Peyton to Adrian Foster.Russel to James or Hogan to Mark Wilson is impossible will probably have the same argument 20yrs from now … remember when course were 7000 yds now there 11000yds.
Enjoy the game.

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Is hitting a green today as tough as it was when Norman was playing? I think that’s debatable. Norman was one of the longer drivers on TOUR at 270 yards average. Players today routinely hit 290, 300 or more. So they’re starting off 20-40 yards or more closer to the green. Then their approach shot is hit with an 8 or 9 iron instead of a 6. That has to be easier. Granted that some (not all) of the courses have gotten longer, but most have not been lengthened enough to make up for the length generated by the new balls, longer shafts, etc. As example, The USGA is lengthening one of the par 5s at Olympic to 670 yards in order to have at least one true 3 shot hole. If they lengthened the course so that the par 4s and par 3s demanded some long irons, they’d have to have room for an 8000yard course! 7000 yards used to be a brute of a course. Today 7000 yards is a creampuff unless the fairways are cut really narrow, the rough is really high, and there are plenty of doglegs.

So if Rory averages 12 greens with modern equipment and Norman averages 12 with persimmon/balata, which is the greater accomplishment? I think there’s plenty of data available to argue that Norman’s achievement was far greater.

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I took a look at the Doral tape last night. They guys in contention are supposed to be on top of their game and I would expect to see some quality ball striking. Tiger hits a short iron into the right bunker, is having a horrible day with his ball striking, dropping the club after he hits the ball on most shots. Injured? Who knows. Rory seemed to hit about half his fairways. Spent a lot of time hitting approach shots from the between palm trees. Hit an iron into the water. Missed a green with a wedge. For the #1 player in the world coming off a great week and saying he is not happy with a 65… to me his ball striking was far from impressive. If you think it’s impressive… good for you.

Keegan is driving it all over the place and is considered to be one of the more accurate strikers these days. On 18 he was way over in some other fairway right, hitting his second shot down that other fairway then having to play a blind shot over the grandstands. Gets the token free drop from the officials and somehow avoids making a double bogey. Bubba I don’t think I ever saw in the fairway… maybe once. If he tried to play like that on my course he would shoot 80.

What would impress me is to see a guy putting the ball down the correct side of the fairway, not just playing the random law of averages with the driver that a 40 yard wide fairway and 20 yards left and right of that leaves 80 yards of possibility, and by firing enough golf balls out there, law of averages will see them in the fairway 50% of the time. Rarely do I see a player have to hit a long iron into a green and if they do they rarely find the green. I see a lot of missed greens with short irons. A lot of greens being missed long and left. Even for the best players who are in contention and clearly near the top of their games… it’s not impressive.

What I do see that is impressive is the putting. I see a lot of putts going in. I have never seen so many 20 footers being made. They seem utterly shocked if any putt doesn’t go in from inside 20 feet as if they have a right to make it. They are very confident on the greens. The lag putting is excellent. I don’t know how they would do on heavily grained greens or slow bumpy greens. They would probably complain about it a lot, and scoff it off as “not real golf”.

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Here is why the modern players struggle with their ball striking.

When you look at Snead, you see a massive thrust with the core muscles right through impact. There is a total inner body connection going on. A masterful cohesive tension with the chi exploding through impact driving the ball from the inner core of his being. Every cell of his body is engaged, right down to his footwork. You can see the pressures being applied through his shoes right into the ground.

You sure don’t see any of that going on in the other swing.

Martial arts masters have been preaching this stuff for thousands of years. Even “Golf in the Kingdom” had Shivas talking about the inner connection.

It’s not esoteric mystery. You can see it right here. I could show one example after another… Hogan, Nelson, Knusdon, De Vicenzo, Palmer… on and on… they had it … and the modern players don’t and it shows in their ball striking.