Clubhead lag myth?

I saw this video and immediately thought back to module #1… I had wayyyy too much forward shaft lean, and at the time I thought that was a good thing. I suppose it can be, IF you get the correct body motion to go with it. This video will explain:

youtube.com/watch?v=mfDasDW1 … ded#at=683

Well,

I would say this is again observation based instruction. What he is seeing is the effect of something else… actually a combination of things such as holding wristcock, keeping the upper arms packed upon the body, turning level and the torso working correctly with proper knee flex and ground pressures. Once you understand how opposing forces work in the golf swing, and that swing plane must be created dynamically through impact not by passively aiming the handle, then you might end with a swing that looks similar to how he is describing… if he is looking at only modern players, then hopefully you can do much better.

I agree that the big forward shaft lean thing promoted by most TGM instruction is going to do nothing more than dig your golfing grave. However, simply pulling up on the butt end of the shaft is not going to create a flat shallow entry powered by proper forearm rotation into the impact arena.

Lagpressure: Once you understand how opposing forces work in the golf swing, and that swing plane must be created dynamically through impact, not by passively aiming the handle…

This statement, right here, goes to the heart of what ABS is all about. As a student, I have seen a marked improvement in the control and quality of my ballflight and scoring. Modern-day, position golf instruction and light, upright gear will take you down a path of least resistance, but you will forever be looking and craving that next tip, that next feel.

Holy Cow…no wonder people get lost in their pursuit of striking a golf ball

The thing is, this is actually the truth… factual stuff. It’s not a theory or feeling, but what actually happens during a sound golf swing. I think that the topic of this this video can change the way some people think of impact alignments and it melds well with what I have seen with ABS.

Am I to read more into the video than that?

We don’t get up on the toes or straighten the right arm out like he is showing… he is just using a flail or sling action into impact that screams dump…not a rotation action

This video was posted on the Gotham Golf Blog. When I saw it, I considered it one of the worst instructional videos I’ve ever seen. To me, this is geared towards upright clubs, offsets and flipping - you can see that when he’s squaring the club face, he is promoting a flip type motion, and not a fore-arm + shoulder turn rotation. In the beginning of the video, if I recall, he criticises Garcia’s motion. He’s basically promoting a pivot stall.

Jacobs teaches a lot with Manzella and they are both into the science of the golf swing. No doubt this instruction is based on some finding from that project. If Manzella and Jacobs got in a room with Lag and Two to discuss the golf swing, I don’t think they’d agree very much. :smiling_imp:

Arent we suppose to get lower as we get into the downswing?

I’m not necessarily out to dispel all other golf instruction… but I do try to keep up with what comes across this site. Comparisons to ABS sometimes are relevant, other times not.

One thing for certain is that you can’t teach what you don’t know… and what I mean is that a big part of “to know” is to be able to execute and demonstrate. If an instructor is teaching, he should be able to do what he teaches.

This site is an advanced ball striking site… therefore aptly named so.

No doubt a 10 handicap can teach a 100 shooter a few good things. But I feel there is a small niche, or “need” for top level instruction in this game.

What Bradley and I are doing here is offering up high level instruction aimed at students interested in pursuing a real life journey toward the mastery of the art and craft of high level ball striking. We don’t ask that only touring pros contact us… but we do ask for a level of commitment and dedication similar to what we put forth to attain a skill level that we believe to be achievable. A reasonable control of the golf ball under your version of competitive golf.

Yes, when done properly.

I found the premise of the video (the hands reach their low point well before the clubhead, and start moving up pre-impact) to be the interesting part.

This is exactly what occurs in Lag’s swing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjvJPeBWJGk[/youtube]

If someone tries to keep their hands moving low/lower into impact there will be some big problems.

I agree with that, pinzer. In a pivot driven swing, the hands are following the pivot, and so as the pivot opens towards the target, so the hands start to come up (as well as go left).

Ultimately swinging shallower will produce such an effect. The more the club is swung around the body, the more pivot driven it becomes when done properly.

I agree, but think that (depending on the camera angle) it may look like they go up more than in they do in reality. I mean that the hands are already going left during impact and that creates that look, if that makes sense.
DTL this would be easier to see…
[youtube]Lag on Swingvision - YouTube
P.S. Good to see you over here Pinzer!

Wow, I pulled this little gem from the author of that video:

So expensive modern research basically has disputed the core concept of ABS?

Then, the question becomes a) Who are the “high end players” and b) what type of pattern do they use?

The only way we’ll ever know is to have have someone uses an ABS move effectively tested on the same equipment. I’d also be interested to know how they tested it.

I think that is the key … to assume that all high-end players swing the same is not valid unless players of varying patterns are studied under the same conditions. I would expect their finding of less (zero) force across the shaft at impact to be tru of Vijay and Couples who are often seen as losing right hand pressure at / after impact… but is harder to imagine from someone like Hogan who retained right wrist bend until after impact… They need to test Hogan!

The model of swing they seem to be saying is optimum seems to be one that is optimised for distance rather than accuracy… that is what the modern game requires to win on the CURRENT tour…so that is what a commercial tour level coach is looking for…that will also work for many amateurs who play on course which encourage length off the tee and no longer give credit for shot shaping…

Remember where Brian has come from and where he is going… He is passionate about golf and wants to teach as well as anyone on the planet…Brian is on a mission to use science to teach the best golf swing he can - to have verifiable fact and not opinion as the basis of his instruction… He, like many of us (that includes Mike Jacobs who tried to buy TGM after Homer’s death), thought that TGM was that fact -based swing instruction programme… many scientists now dispute the physics contained in TGM…kind of makes you feel “wronged” for a while when you realise that you were right to doubt some of the “hard to swallow” bits of TGM…but you kept trying to swallow none the less… so Brian and his colleagues are trying to search for the perfect golf swing… they call it “Project 1:68” and it will be available commercially (unlike MORAD it seems)… these short videos are just “amuse bouche” for the real thing - “kite flying” if you will… hard to hold them to account for every word they say since it is incomplete (pending final publication and payment of money)…and yet it gives them a chance to find out what the public think about their ideas… politicians do this all the time in the UK…something I am sure that they have learnt from their US cousins…

They are using a combination of scientifically observed data of players as well as physics principles to hypothesise what might be the optimum pattern.

They are open about their previous beliefs which science now discredits - they admit that they have tried to squash ideas in the past that they now hold true (based on their current science) - I am sure that if Lag wanted to have himself measured then Brian would arrange for it to be done. The outcome could be that Brian has to rewrite some of his science or that Lag’s ideas are very effective feels rather than actual facts… it might be that very effective feels or intentions are a better way of teaching… all remains to be discovered… The process that Brian and co are undergoing is an exciting one - the manner in which it is delivered remains to be seen… but they are keen to avoid actively or aggressively disproving others…merely finding truth…or at least that is what I understand from their material.

Financial DIsclosure - I have paid Brian for 2 afternoons of lessons about 4 years ago. I have bought some of his videos.

If we look at the butt of the club in the DTL view in this video through impact it can appear that the “hands” unit is already starting to come up. However, if our attention focuses on the small region between the hands, where the index finger of the higher hand and the small finger of the lower hand are near each other, that junction appears to have little vertical movement or maybe none. (Being an iron shot, perhaps the junction has some downward movement that’s difficult to detect.) Through the small region nearing, through, and beyond impact the butt of the club may have some “up” in its total motion and the junction between the hands can have motion that is relatively level compared to the butt of the club perhaps because during this region of the swing at least, the junction between both hands may be the pivot point of the shaft, not the butt of the club. Yet the overall visual perception may be that the “hands” are moving up.

I need some grounding on this one. The thread starts with a video from NYGOLFWORLD, who I think is a man named Jacobs, and then Budman posts a “gem” which is a quote from someone somewhere, then Golfbulldog seems to imply that the quote is from someone named Brian…maybe of the Manzella variety. Does the Budman quoted gem come from Jacobs or Manzella… and are they both associated with one another profesionally.

Watched the Jacobs video at the start of the thread and it looks like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. If I ever get up on my toes like that would someone please hammer my heels back onto the ground so I can get back “doon”. :slight_smile:

If ManZilla ever does publish his project, I’l read it for kicks. I think he has some of the better research out there, but I find him very frustrating to listen to. It would be interesting to have the test data for someone like lag. Although I belive the core principles of ABS to be fact, even if they were disputed I’d say they are a very effective intention. Even if flex can’t be held to impact, it makes sense to try. Another core tenet of ABS is to work toward perfect intentions, whether they are attainable or not.