93rd PGA Championship

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
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Bubba Watson mentioned that the golf courses are getting ridiculously long. He stated that courses need to have tighter fairways and higher roughs, and not making the course longer. He said he still will hit it in the rough with wider fairways anyways, just because he can, since he can hit it far and have more room to spray. He compared it to like a football field, the field never lengthens in that sport, why stretch it out in golf, just make it harder with tighter fairways and higher roughs. He said having approach shots with irons to the green, will give everyone a chance.

Hole number 2 has been converted to Par 4, which normally plays a Par 5 which stands at 512 yards.

Hole number 18 looks to be a hell of a challenge. Its a Par 4, 507 yards with the green protected with water in the front. Even with a good tee shot you will be left with a good 210-240 going over water near the green. This of course if you hit the fairway, if not…you will be looking to layup.

They are having Bermuda Greens for the first time they said and will be very firm and very fast.

Lee Westwood had to double check the list to see if he made the cut during his interview on the spot hahah…the commenter questioned if he made the cut, stating he didnt, and Lee Westwood was shocked and wasn’t sure. Audience had a good laugh on that one.

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Forgot to mention Hole #15. The 260 yard Par 3! :astonished:

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I’ll watch it until I see a ball spin back on the green from the so called rough.

So that might be about two minutes.

It would be refreshing to see it set up more like The Canadian Open than the recent US Open.

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I was fortunate to be out there today since i live in Atl its about 15 mi away. The greens are chapions bermuda yes they will be firm and fast but one must remember this stuff grows in the heat and ATL has had 90 plus temps and humidity for the last two months therefore early times will suffer the most as the greens will grow before your eyes. The members were shut down on playing about 3 weeks ago so fairways hit off the tee will have perfect lies off the zyo- dont know how to spell it grass.
Hole 2 is a very easy hole converted into a par 4 slightly down on the second shot. Hole 18 also converted into a par 4 but watch out for drives they will run anywhere from 15 to 25 yds!!!
The pars 3’s will be the courses defense 250 even tho it’s downhill hmmm

On a side note was able to watch the practice area where Sean Foley was tryinto get Justin Rose to stand the club up vertical on the backswing but get the hands in deep just workin on the backswing- What happenned to last yrs swing.
Day was workin on backswing also very methodical during setup and putting a ball on the ground behind the clubface workin on takeaway.
Most impressive part was short game they all kept the ball low to the ground with very little hand action and alot of body pivot thru the swing.Alot of low spinners and bump and runs very few high shots.
Hometown favorite Matt Kuchar looked good nice penetrating wedge shots on the range.

Forecast low 90’s humid. With very little rough would’t be surprised double digit wins.The need to move the ball off the the tee is limited as with shaping shots into the greens being on the wrong side of fairway will not hurt anyone only make the shot longer.

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Its funny how most of the players are hating longer courses. They all state that it takes away from the skill of shaping shots…instead now its a just a slugger game…who can drive the farthest. To them its a lot more fun to play a more skillful golf game, then the longest distance game.

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Warning… another rant from “lagpressure”. Do not read the following unless you are new to these forums.

I’ll wear the broken record hat again tonight…
Equipment companies want long courses to sell their clubs, balls that go miles and don’t spin, no rough to keep the scores low and keep the fans fooled into thinking the pros today are amazing, and real estate developers love bigger courses to sell more fairway home lots.

The PGA Tour doesn’t want The Canadian Open where 4 under wins the event. Makes their partner in crime the USGA look like fools. The USGA loves the kickbacks?.. from the equipment companies to keep the gear moving into high tech. The USGA blows a smoke screen out to the public by banning square grooves to make people think they are concerned about the games preservation which has had zero impact after watching every pro spin the ball back out of the rough at the Congressional Classic.

The naysayers love to use the hickory to steel analogy, gutta percha to balata analogy to rationalize the games need for technological evolution.

However, most of the nations classic historic gems were designed for persimmon and steel along with balata and meant to be played that way, which the game did from about 1935 till 1990… with only hairline fractional differences. Hogan, Snead and Nelson to Norman, Watson and Nicklaus etc…

I retired from full time competition at the end of the persimmon age. So what would I get in exchange for the modern game if I suited up with all the new goodies?

Take away my steel spikes that were the basis of my swing’s foundation. I lose the sound and feel and workability of a persimmon driver along with the visual beauty of a nice persimmon head. I lose the physics of proper mass in the heads of my clubs. I lose the reliability of steel in my driver shaft. I get a ball I can’t spin or work my shot shapes correctly. I get golf courses that I can’t walk and often am required to ride in a cart. I lose the ability to properly work out my cardiovascular system by walking a golf course. I get a laser yardage scope but lose my ability to train my intuition to visually feel the shot and yardage. As a spectator, I lose the enjoyment of seeing my fellow professionals properly challenged. With perimeter weighted irons, I lose the vital feedback that keeps my swing honed and true. With the modern driver I lose my golf swing, and am forced to swing upright with a 64 degree lie angle and I lose my ability to hit fairways. I lose the feel of the club in general with lightweight heads.

I think it’s a lot to lose.

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If Tiger Woods, Rory, or Adam Scott played with flat, heavy, classic blades and persimmons… I wondered if people would catch on or jump on the band wagon of the top players and demand such equipment and to learn how to play like them…

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Could someone please tell me if pros are allowed to switch the clubs in their bag on a daily basis during a tournament or do they have to make a decision and live with it for the next four days?

Also what is the procedure for equipment? Do you check in with a list of what is in your bag? Does someone do a visual inspection of your clubs before the start of play each day or do they just take your word for it? Maybe there is random club checking like drug testing?

Just curious how the 14 club rule is enforced on tour.

Another question I have is that in todays press conference with Tiger (btw,he is too damn cute, lovin the goatee ) he said he has “fresh wedges” in his bag. Did he mean since last week :open_mouth: ? How often does he need fresh wedges?
Didn’t hear him mention “start lines” at all so maybe there is hope for him yet.
I’ll be watching and keeping my wedges crossed for him to do well…
Can’t help it I’m still a big fan.

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On the first tee of the first round of each event, there is a person with a sheet who fills in the details of every players clubs that they are starting the tournament with. And balls too.
The people work for a company called The Darrel Survey…sometimes it’s players wives who do it (and earn a few bucks for the week), most often it is John and family who own the Darrel Survey company. They are paid to travel the Tour and do this every week by equipment companies and probably get a stipend from the Tour also.
The reasoning is…players get paid to have so many clubs in their bag and use a specific ball/glove/hat… they take notes on all of this so nothing slips through the system and someone isn’t getting paid endorsements for something they don’t use.
The second reason is…when you see an advertisement…“Number 1 driver on the PGA Tour…or most played ball on tour”…the writing underneath that statement usually has in small letters …per Darrel Survey… this is how these companies come up with these brash statements about their equipment.

Yes…the club counters will make sure you have no more than 14 clubs…as they are filling out their product sheets for each player

You can change clubs at the end of a round…so in Round 2 you could use an entirely different set if you wanted. Clubs can’t be changed during a round UNLESS a club is broken in the normal action of playing a shot…in which case it can be replaced without undue delay…(most players would have spare drivers, putters and maybe wedges in their locker)…these could be substituted mid round if the original was broken swinging into a tree or was leaned upon and the shaft snapped etc… but they couldn’t be replaced for breaking one over your knee or throwing one that accidentally broke as a result.
I had an occurrence in denver one year where I was waiting for a new wedge to arrive and it didn’t get to my locker before I teed off on Day one…so I actually set off and played with 13 clubs…we had a rain delay and had to come back the next morning to finish the back 9 holes and I was allowed to add the wedge because I had started with 13 clubs…interesting one there isn’t it.

Don’t know how Tiger’s wedges aren’t fresh?..he’s been laid up for about 4 months without much practice at all…might be a psychological thing more than a neccessity to be replacing new wedges into the bag on the eve of a Major.

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Additionally Rules Officials are discouraged by the USGA and R&A to go around physically checking for club/ball conformance or counting clubs, trying to minimize the ‘policing’. They rely on fellow competitor or spectator reports.

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When I first saw you say this elsewhere I thought you were a bit internet forum ‘armchair QB’ coo-coo. I mean they are PRO’s and 150 of the worlds “best” out of millions of golfers, right? But the more I’ve watched the PGA in my first year as a golfer the more I am seeing through the smoke and realizing you were just speaking truth.

Sure we have some amazing performances sprinkled around that are rightfully talked about (Rory’s runaway win at US “Open”, Appleby’s 59, etc) and these guys ARE on tour which is about same chance making as a teenager wanting to become a rockstar, but… To me I see stuff that I just don’t associate a top world class professional in his sport doing. On top of which they all have started to seem ‘spoiled’ and sense of entitlement. Only a few to me stand out as DRIVEN perfectionists (Donald and Tiger).

I have seen Schwartzel plea for a ruling of relief earlier this year when he was about 1ft away from a drain. Unless he contorted himself to actually hit the drain purposely he was in no danger of hurting himself that he claimed. So instead of hitting out of rough and awkward lie of wayward tee-shot he eventually got a drop to edge of fairway and sticks approach shot.

Rory destroys US Open field only to miss the cut in some smaller Irish venue a few weeks later then proclaims the weather at fault and announces he will play more PGA because WEATHER here us US suits his game better. Today at PGA he tweaks his wrist and that will be his story for weekend why he didn’t top-10.

Players missing the green at times from fairway and 100-150y out. A fairway for a tee shot is an accomplishment now. Many times their balls would be 20+ yards deeper or out of play if not for fans. On and on.

I do realize golf is difficult and humbling game, even for Tiger. BUT so is table tennis. It just LOOKS to ME that the “best golfers in the world” (we are led to believe) is not much further ahead of scratch handicaps other than RIDICULOUS recovery ability and/or ability on and around the greens. That is basically what I feel I am watching now. Not great ball-strikers but I get amazed at them getting to green from rough or behind trees and tough lies, and them routinely getting up/down from even sand traps and anywhere within 20 yards of greens.

Anyway.

Tiger is another story. Same story with him actually. I watched his 1st round live on PC this morning and he looked super-sharp for first 5 holes (-3). I thought “major, healed, things clicking. This might be a weekend to watch come sunday”. Then he puts it into water on that ridiculous par-3 and I turned it off and went back to sleep not thinking it was a big deal. I woke up and he was PLUS SIX on the day!! He shot a +10 by time his round was over for next 13 holes.

It is definitely mental/confidence issues at this point. OR he is fighting his natural swing mechanics too much with Foley’s pattern. To look as good as he did for those opening holes then collapse has been his story now for the whole year he has been working on this swing change. The pattern must work for him but he starts to doubt it/himself as soon as one or two things don’t go well, then snowballs from there. He could miss the cut at this point. Does he even WANT to be out there anymore OTHER than just beating Jacks record?

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Ok…

What is golf?
To me a great golfer will have quality technique and can shoot par or better on a public golf course with poor greens, bad lies often in the fairways… scraggly lies around the greens and other interesting situations… occasional unraked bunkers and so forth. That same player could also perform on a beautifully manicured golf course because they have all the shots.

A quality golfer should be prepared for all of these conditions… including weather. Are the players better now than in the past? No way.

I can see it with the golf swings. The swings are not as good. I don’t think the putting strokes are as good either. Take these guys off velvet greens and you’ll see most of them collapse.

If you are good, you won’t have any problem hitting persimmon and blades or a balata for that matter. You will be able to hit greens with long irons more often than not, and you will be able to drive the ball in the fairway 7 to 8 times out of 10 with a persimmon driver.

You’ll be able to shoot par or better with smaller less forgiving gear, and a pro should be able to do this stepping out of a 20 hour car ride without AC in the middle of summer in Texas.

I am almost finished reading The Hershey Hurricane, the book about the life and golf of Henry Picard. It was incredible what these guys went through to play golf for little or no money. Golf was about golf… competition, respect from your peers and the pressure of playing for very little prize money… knowing that if you can’t cut it in the trenches, you go back home to work a tough job like everyone else did. 3 or 4 guys driving the tour in the same car and sharing expenses across the vast expanse of America on roads that were a lot more primitive than the well maintained interstates that connect the nation these days. Think that doesn’t matter?

Being subjected to extreme adversity actually made these guys better players. There were guys playing on the PGA Tour in the 1950’s and 60’s that were literally camping the tour. Staying in camp grounds and then heading out to the course to play in the event. Guy were doing this in the 80’s while I was in Canada. It’s harder to do that… it really is.

We can’t pull these guys from the grave and see how they would do with modern gear on perfect surfaced courses… but we could take modern players and give them the gear those guys used and put them on poorly maintained courses after two days of driving with only a rattling AM radio and 3 other guys in the car and see how they do. I think you’d see a lot of 75’s and 77’s. Not 67’s.

Johnny Miller shooting 63 at the US Open at Oakmont… that was some golf… historic stuff. Steve Striker shooting 63 today?
What do you think?

Is this a “major” or just another tour event with light rough, perfect conditions with greens that hold and so forth.

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Brandon Steele…a lot of things going right up into impact (flat and deep 4:30) then he throws it all away with a pivot stall and a flip. Let’s see how bad that hook gets today.

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Hey Budman,

I respectfully disagree to some extent. Sean Foley is Tiger’s problem (actually, Tiger’s decision making is Tiger’s problem). Teaching Stack & Tilt (which sounds like it should be on an IHOP menu or the name of a ride at a local carnival) to Tiger is exactly the issue. Listening to people like Hank Haney and Peter Kostis gush about how much Tiger knows about his golf swing and the technical aspects of the golf swing is obviously a joke. Stack & Tilt is great for short iron contact…however, your distance control is going to suck because you get too steep. Same deal with driving…you can knock it out there a ton (if you time everything correctly), but if you are off a fraction - tops, hooks, weak scud slaps, etc. are the result. Sound familiar, Tiger?

If Tiger goes back to somebody like Butch Harmon who has ties to real old-school teaching through his father Claude…Tiger will likely rebound. If not, see you on the senior tour Tiger.

Captain Chaos

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The only headlines I saw about the PGA where “Tiger misses Cut” or “Tiger hits new Low”
Never saw anything about the golfers who where playing well.

As much as the guys on tour may resent “It’s all about Tiger”… I hope they realize that the reason they are playing
for the money they do is because of Tiger. Had Tiger not come along… they would still be playing for 1 to 2 million a week tops. (yes total purse)

When I was playing in Australia purses were 100K to 500K (A) a week. In Canada 100K to 150K a week.
In Hogan, Snead era 10K a week.

What we will see in golf moving forward is unknown. But I would predict an ever changing list of major winners getting on the Ferris Wheel. This is because the game and gear has become so homogenized that it is becoming harder and harder for the better players to stand out from the pack. The gear is too easy to hit, so it brings in all the guys who can’t hit it all that well… and the superior ball strikers don’t strike it as well because they are not getting the cranial feedback to keep them as sharp as they need to be. There is no reward for accuracy off the tee since the tour has removed real rough even from majors (exluding The Canadian Open) so a precision ball striker driving from the tee never pops out from the pack as they should.

So tee to green, the game is mostly a wash… and it then becomes an up and down and a putting contest… more likely to see a revolving door effect setting the game up this way than when golf was more of a ballstrikers game played on more variable conditions tee to green with equipment that required proper skills to execute.

Tiger will be back at some point… but I don’t think he will dominate the game like he once did. As much as the tour would like to have a new crown prince… ultimately that will only happen by a player dominating, and they are certainly trying their best to shoot their own feet in that regard.

I didn’t even feel the motivation to watch this weeks “major”

Still not sure why 3 of the 4 world majors are on US soil. I’ve always thought the Australian Open should be the 4th major.
It certainly had the list of proper international champions through the end of the persimmon age. If the guys bitch about it being too far away then I guess they won’t win the event.

Tennis players make the journey.

Each major should subject the players to a different skill set. Obviously The Masters “used to”… and the US Open “used to”
and it is only the “British Open” that actually tests any kind of diversity of real shotmaking anymore. So we really only have two majors in my mind… the British and Canadian Open. The PGA Championship offers nothing unique to the palate since it left the match play format. At best it’s a watered down US Open…often interchanging courses with the US Open. I hope the Canadians don’t cave in next year from pressure to “conform” as 4 under won the tournament. You didn’t see anyone shooting 63 up there with real rough growing even considering they did cave and cut it down after Friday’s round.

The US Open’s excuse for the rough not growing because it was too hot… is complete crap. Never was a problem 100 years ago on the east coast in early summer. I will bet my life you could find an un kept field near the golf course with 20 inch weeds growing.

8 under par was a US Open record that stood for decades … now it’s just a common score… and it’s certainly not because the player are better.