I’d never seen that before and the camera positioning is absolutely no accident. It feels like something he made to leave to someone in his will or something. I’m no expert on TGM but there are things going on there big time that I’ve never seen in TGM players. And I don’t think anything is automatic there either. It’s sequential and dynamic and gets ingrained into the core move but it’s controlled and gets manipulated in a few places to hit different shots.
Like watching Einstein on a chalkbord, redfining the way the universe works. It’s all been there the whole time but we need someone like Hogan to explain the next level of evolution in motion. With the consistency of shafts and balls and conditions available today he could have put up stats that are off the charts and unthinkable.
I remember you talking of both Willie Wood and Corey Pavin from your college years Lag… I have had the pleasure of playing with both. Found these old swing sequences of them when they were PGA Tour rookies…thought it would bring back some college golf memories… love frames 5 & 6 of Willie’s swing there…terrific
RR
Thanks for the clarification on the horizon, I wasn’t sure what horizontal journey you were talking about. I can definitely see his club doing that move, and it’s a tough one to do at speed. It’s definitely a great intention to have. I’ve played around with a little semi circular move in that area with the head which I like a little better because it incorporates a lowering aspect with the deepening. Being 6’ 1" I’ve got to think a little more about the down part than you guys do Lucky bastards! I think anything that gets your shaft coming out of your body somewhat perpendicular to your spine and from below your right shoulder has to be good. I’ve played around with picturing the shaft shooting a line up out of the club at address and feeling a sense in the part of my body that it goes through and then get my intentions focused on that area as the place I’ll be attacking the ball from. I like sensations, at the heart of it I’m a feel player. I’ve been pretty competitive at a good few different sports so I’ve got decent athletic instincts. When I get the right sense or feel or picture of a motion my body is pretty good at finding a way to do it.
What do you mean when you say ‘auto pilot’? Do you mean you’re no longer active in the process, or do you mean you no longer have to alter the directional journey of the club? I tend to agree with LCDV about being actively involved. I’ve worked pretty hard over the years to find a way to set things in motion and have natural reactions occur in a physics type way, and I never got anywhere with it really. I’d say I’m a believer in being an active participant in the motion at this point.
Cheers
Those pics of Willie and Corey are priceless…
what couple of great golf swings, from two fabulous players.
You can see Corey’s use of ground pressures jumping out at us… wonderful…
His backswing looks a lot like a young Nicklaus too.
I love how Willie loaded into his right foot…very Sam Snead looking… and worked such wonderful spine tilt keeping his left arm glued to his chest right through to P4. Top stuff…
I played a lot of golf with these guys back then, and those guys were GOOD! And really good with the flat stick…
Wow, the ball is well and trully on it’s way, and the lag is holding wonderfully, great hold to slide 6 too. Did he change his swing after this, it’s hard to believe he didn’t achieve more with such a solid swing as a youngster.
BOM: You betcha…it’s very tough to do at speed. It really takes a firm committment to keep everything else in place while moving horizontally. I also have the '97 issue of Golf Digest of the Best 30 Swings. An old picture there of Hogan in which there is tarp behind him which forms like the water/sky horizon image in the video you posted of Hogan in slow motion. Check it out and watch how the clubhead travels that line for a short distance- what we can’t see is the depth of it as you mentioned in a previous post. Just a little different way to swing among the thousands of ways. As Lag said, once we know what correct impact feels like the sky’s the limit. This horizontal move is just another one of those ways.
About “auto-pilot”. That’s the dynamic I was getting to. With that motion, among thousands available, I believe one does not have to alter anything once the club starts on that course. Just let it go…no alteration necessary cuz even though the move may defy common instinct, the subconscious remains aware of what are intentions are and will figure out how to get to the ball from what ever position we put it in. So for me, once you’re in motion the path is already committed unless we deliberately alter it’s course. An example: I can line up 10 great ball strikers that will say that follow-thru positions are dynamic positions one doesn’t seek but gets there involuntarily based on their motion through the ball- kind of like you can’t stop a moving car on a dime- you’re DESTINED to travel some further distance down the road. However, I can line up 10 others that would say the follow thru positions at very discrete points within the motion are something we actually have to hit or “pass thru”. The old “chicken v. egg” argument. I’m in the first camp. If my follow thru feels like an unmade bed I look for areas of correction way before impact- often at the top of the swing.
Like that you’re a feel player- me too. I think feel players have more arrows in the quiver than postion people. Being 6’1" have you ever tried any of Byron Nelsons various swing images. He had some real cool images that makes any down difficulties you skyscrapers have really pretty easy. RR
quote from magazine article 1984…The Tour players agree nobody hits the ball more purely-. “I was playing a practice round with Gil in 1982 at Colonial” recalls Tom Purtzer… “Gil was striking it perfectly as usual…so I asked him when was the last time he didn’t hit a solid shot”… we walked about 50 yards from the tee box and he turned and said…“In Memphis 3 years ago…!!! and he was dead serious”
BOM: Gil Morgan is another good example of getting the clubhead further away from the target line within the first few moments of the target turn. From the Dr.s position at the top I guarantee you the clubhead is going to move in the same aspect as Hogan did at the top- backs away from the target line. When one crosses the line at the top, the only way to get to an inside path on the downmove is to move that goofy little clubhead away. Bobby Jones did this move exceptionally well IMO. RR Thanks Two for the pictures- you guys must have great libraries
Looks like TM has saved his old Golf Digests. The Greg Norman sequence I clearly remember. That is the swing that defined Greg Norman and made him what he was, not the crappy tight ass sunny side up swing Harmon was making him do.
Is Monty - by ABS’ definiton of the terms - a “swinger” or “hitter”. He appears to be very much a swinger to me (though viewing the downswing sequence would help…). Please clear this up for me.
RR
I liked your thought on the other thread regarding not over powering the club. A thought I’ve stumbled upon recently in doing some different drills is a slight softening of grip pressure during the slow down at transition. It gives a nice feeling of time and also power because by softening the grip pressure you, in a strange way, increase your connection with the club since you get to feel the momentum of it’s weight. It reminded me of a Bobby Jones thought about unlatching his left palm grip at the top so he was just holding it in his fingers. And interestingly you also mentioned how Jones was good at that horizontal move. If you think about the journey of the club in the backswing, it’s actually going that way anyway so by softening a little and slowing down a touch the momentum of the club is given a little time to keep going for a second while it begins it’s fall- a non invasive method anyway.
I do actually think that grip pressure changes during the swing is a cool way to use the club, and isn’t something that is talked about much. It’s pretty clear that you grip firmer at impact and as the club really starts to accelerate so when does that start? I think builds instinctively with the increase of speed so by that understanding maybe it should decrease as the club slows down- and a good place to slow down is during transition.
An interesting thing about getting it across the line is that it’s one of the best ways to get it from the inside. I went through a phase experimenting with that action. It’s very powerful but there’s always a feeling of some shot soon leaving the planet! I think Byron Nelson used that method very well. A lot of the old timers got it across the line because the really let the club swing around the body in the backswing- most old swings have very inside takeaways. It could be attributable to the predominant understanding in those days of the hips being the focus of the motion. Bobby Jones was the king of that for sure. I also think this is relevant to the fact that everyone was a afraid of hooking it back in the day.
BOM: Cool questions in that I haven’t thought about my grip or grip pressures for decades. I don’t fiddle with it, I let nature take its own course- unless of course a specific situation demands altering grip pressure. Long rough maybe. But in general, I think grip pressures takes care of itself relative to intent.
Never heard before that B. Jones unlatched his L hand at the top- will have to check that out. Now I’m not saying someone so great had a poor L hand position on the club, but if the L hand is not set properly the club will move to the fingers whether one crosses the line or stays parallel at the top. My guess would be that he had enough time to “snatch” it back during the process of moving the head back away from the line. I’ll have to have a closer look at him. IMO if the club gets to my L hand fingers @ the top control of the club will switch to the R hand and then we will “snatch” it back to L hand control to start the target turn. I’ve got good hands, but not that good- so for me I wouldn’t attempt that. But whatever works, works. Hell, the ball only knows compression. If a person can stand on their head, hold it with 2 fingers, and compress the ball blindfolded on a consisent basis go for it.
Lucky bastards! I think anything that gets your shaft coming out of your body somewhat perpendicular to your spine and from below your right shoulder has to be good. I’ve played around with picturing the shaft shooting a line up out of the club at address and feeling a sense in the part of my body that it goes through and then get my intentions focused on that area as the place I’ll be attacking the ball from. I like sensations, at the heart of it I’m a feel player. I’ve been pretty competitive at a good few different sports so I’ve got decent athletic instincts. When I get the right sense or feel or picture of a motion my body is pretty good at finding a way to do it.
