A gentle reminder for the video… 
lag,
In reference to swinging how long should the # 4 pressure point be held till it blasts off. I notice when i use my pivot and hang on to it longer better results and what did Moe Norman do with this pressure.
Thank You
I don’t like the idea of blasting it off the chest… That’s swinging stuff, and sells us short on our objectives of holding shaft flex.
Keep it packed onto the body until you feel you have run out of room to rotate post impact. From there we actively thrust it up with our arms. It’s really the only time in the golf swing the arms actively do anything. A proper golf swing is driven by the pivot and the hands… not the arms.
P4 to PV5
Moe was a pure CF swinger and did that protocol better than anyone that ever lived. He CF released it with dead hands from a shoulder impact plane with the clubshaft and left arm inline, which is the only way to do it. At some point I’ll probably put a program together for those who want to learn to swing it that way.
Regardless of hit or swing preference, you can’t escape the reality that the pivot has to get really busy post impact to master the ball striking aspect of this game.
Moe’s way is a great way. I watched him with my own two eyes for years, and picked his brain every chance I could.
1 Like
Lag do you remember the lie angles on Moe’s clubs. Would it make sense if he was playing more upright angles??
I don’t remember Moe’s irons being anything out of the ordinary… heavy, and bigger grips… the wrapped kind with the spaces in between for his skin to sink into.
He stood far from the ball, fairly standard lies… nothing real flat or upright for that matter.
Yeah; he mentions in the Orlando clinics that his irons are an E3 swing weight.
My 59 Dynas are E3…
They are the first set I will put in the bag if I haven’t played in a while. For me, if I lay off, the club feels light. If the club feels light, I tend to swing my arms too much and not my pivot.
When the club feels heavy, I naturally use the bigger muscles in my trunk the move the club. So from all of that perspective, I really prefer the feeling of a heavier club.
Then of course, the ball will always react better to it being struck with more weight. But swing weight itself is simply the relationship between head and grip weight.
Though I have already posted this today under another topic (Ballstriking Improvements I Have Made ), Arnie suggested I post it here also. So here you are (though the posting is a little improved and changed):
[size=200]Why I believe swinging is superior over hitting - if you let it happen spontaneously
[/size]
I am an ergonomist and have done research relevant to the swing movement coordination issue. Also I have been dealing with stress psychology. I will discuss the swing vs hitting issue against this background.
I am about to restart golf after a pause of several years. I am switching from unsuccessful hitting to swinging, and would be grateful for feedback. I am now learning the Moe Norman swing using vide instructions of Tim Graves.
Moe was a pure swinger as I understand from his description of his feel. I think the “swing philosophy” of Moe was profound, and similar to that of the successful great teachers Ernest Jones and Manuel de la Torre.
[size=150]The principle of pure swinging[/size]
What I very much like about this principle is that it, so as to say, “hands over” to the club to guide the swing motion in stead of consciously controlling it. This means that the physical laws of motion, the centripetal force and inertial force are doing the job in stead of conscious muscular guidance of the club. As de la Torre says, the motion of the club should be primary and the movement of the body secondary, adapting to the motion.
This I think is a superior approach and a key factor behind Moe’s extraordinary success.
[size=150]The vulnerability of intentional control - hitting
[/size]
My research and experience as a specialist in occupational health who also uses a method for treating back problems has led me to the conclusion that the fine coordination of the body is a quite vulnerable process. It is vulnerable to nervousness and (often not obvious) muscular/connective tissue microdamage that both alter the feedback required for proper coordination. When the feedback is altered the swing cannot be effectuated properly because it is like a complex computer program whose correct effectuation is entirely dependent on correct input. When the input is altered (different from what was there when your body learnt the swing) you believe you swing as usually but in reality the outcome is different. It is a terrible experience - disruptive to confidence - you do exactly the usual swing movement, but the outcome is disastrous. I know it from my own experience and have heard it from many others.
Therefore a swing that eliminates the “interference” of the body is superior, because only the physical laws of motion can ensure an exactly reproducible club path - completely automatically…
This is entirely in line with the following quote of Moe Norman:
I think pure swinging without muscular interference is one of the key secrets behind Moe’s remarkably consistent precision, as well as of the great success of Manuel de la Torres teaching.
[size=150]Pseudoswinging
[/size]
I suspect that those who have difficulties with pure swinging are unconsciously unable to deride themselves of some habits that interfere with the movement, throwing the swing off the ideal path, especially if the club is too light (I suppose the ideal heaviness depends on the body mass of the swinger). That is, they are “pseudoswinging”
I understand Moe’s description that the swing gives a “feeling of freedom” - it is almost religious - you surrender to nature letting the natural laws do the job while you only provide a steady and easily reproducible platform for it (stance, fixed left leg, rotation only of the upper body etc). This is called “flow” in sports psychology and many succsessful sportsmen have described it in their victorious moments - a sense that you are a happy, yes blissful, uninvolved witness of your body flowing in perfect tune with the laws of nature. Harald Harung, a Norwegian scientist has found that it is not just a kind of self-suggestion, but in this state the brain is highly integrated, see http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insight/ViewContentServlet?contentType=Article&Filename=/published/emeraldfulltextarticle/pdf/md-06-2008-0155_rtc_cl_final.pdf
It takes some confidence and inner security to “surrender”. A vast majority of people today are consciously or unconsciously anxious and insecure. This brings about a strong urge to control different aspects of life, including the swing movement. The secure and harmonious person can easily enjoy letting go of moment - to moment control and let the laws of nature take over.
So I think it is very likely that those who fail to apply the Jones-De la Torre - Moe principle of really pure, uninterferred swinging, are, in reality, pseudoswinging - that is, in reality, subconscious “switters”.
The key to develop successful and superior swinging, fully free from subconscious interference is consequently to develop inner security and harmony. This has been really difficult formerly, but there are effective solutions. But that is another topic that I will cover another time.
Barring that, I suppose increasing the club weight as Moe did, might reduce the interference of the swing from muscular tensions.
In any case, I think hitting is generally more vulnerable to tensions and muscular disturbances because it depends more on intentional control and precise coordination, if I got it right.
I’m not the brightest bulb in the chandelier…so…can you provide an example of being ‘unconsciously anxious’ that supports your premise?
Thanks, RR 
In the two threads - 'Lynn Blake’s TGM Pattern Golf Swing’ and 'Thoughts on Hitting vs Swinging, regarding the role of the trail arm, there seems to exist some contradiction.
Lag, I just picked out a few posts but there seems to be two contradicting concepts for the ideal motion for hitting with the trail arm…either keeping it bent (‘blue’) or straightening it out forcefully (‘red’).
Thoughts on Hitting vs Swinging.
— lagpressure » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:53 pm
‘On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis.’
— lagpressure » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:14 pm
‘Great hitters like Hogan, Knudson, Peter Senior, go through impact with a frozen right arm, arms pinned on the body with great pivot rotation that does anything but stop at impact…’
Lynn Blake’ TGM Pattern Golf Swing
— lagpressure » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:49 pm
‘Remember, Mac O’Grady is a hitter all the way, so his right arm straightens quickly on the downswing to the 3rd parallel.’
‘If you were to keep the right arm bent with this kind of motion, you would come OTT and pull every shot dead left. You Have to straighten the right arm on the way down or it’s OB left…’
— lagpressure » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:14 pm
'If you straighten your right elbow into impact swinging with just the right arm, and I do the same thing swinging with just the right arm, but I keep my elbow locked firm through impact from about P3 to P4… I’m going to take all your lunch money… ’
— aiguille » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:32 pm
‘The frozen right arm, module 3, the form 3 lever and the form 1 lever, post impact thrust…this is right at the heart of sustaining lagpressure.’
— twomasters » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:00 am
‘To me it isn’t hard to figure that right arm preservation is a master move and it is seen in just about ALL the premier ball strikers ever.’
I can’t see it too difficult to understand Mandrin. Well I understand Lag’s posts as this way: You release a bit of right arm on the downswing…the shoulders turn flat and the right arm straightens. This move gets you down to the Third Parallel. The right arm however is never fully straightened. From the Third Parallel the right arm still has a good amount of bend and you now fire the hands but keep the bend in the right arm up to the Fourth Parallel.
Reply to Range Rat:
Thank you for noting - “unconsciously anxious” - that was a funny typo 
in my posting.
What I meant was “subconsciously anxious”. This is very common and most people are “unconscious” 
of it.
[size=150]The remarkable discovery of the Swedish Air Force[/size]
Let me explain with an example. In Sweden, where I have been living, the air-force found that subconscious anxiety was the major cause for flight crashes. They realized that it made pilots prone to panic when something suddenly went wrong in a difficult situation, for example some red lamp requiring an immediate, not obvious, response while flying 500 feet over the ground. It caused 20-30 flight crashes every year. Psychologists told them that the cause was deeply ingrained memories of frightful situations in the childhood, causing insecurity and upholding a more or less permanent state of anxiety.
So they developed a test, that was designed to detect this weakness. It was very successful. After introducing this test the number of crashes went down to virtually zero.
[size=150]“Subconscious” anxiety is very common[/size]
Most important, what the Air Force also found when applying this test for combat pilot selection. was that it was difficult to find enough of really mentally healthy anxiety-free candidates for combat pilot training (they needed only 20-25 every year).
This concurs with several other observations indicating that the vast majority of people in modern society are subconsciously anxious.
This has a direct relevance for golf, as it makes people prone to become nervous and tense under challenging competition conditions. Or when they have a “bad day”. This may interfere with the execution of the complex coordinated movements like the swing. I will return to that in another post.
Yes,
the right arm…
that would be the observational equivalent … of course easier said than done… it’s not easy trying to do it… as these positions take a lot of dynamic training to execute properly… but certainly the theory behind it has great merit. I am always striving for it.
Welcome Dr Jaan…
thanks for stopping by…
I would agree that Moe did it right…
I saw it for 7 years with my own eyes, therefore not one to argue about Moe mastering the swinging methodology.
Moe told me a lot over the years, and I listened and took notes, and I have some great footage of him I took with my own camera in the late 80’s… spectacular stuff.
I feel blessed I had the opportunity to learn from him directly…
[size=200]Suggestions to lagpressure [/size]
[size=150]This may make you want to return to swinging[/size]
This is based on my ergonomic and biophysical analysis of the swing as well as knowledge about the coordination mechanics of the swing. Here I have elaborated some parts of my posting on the superiority of “swinging” compared to hitting, and added more aspects.
First I want to express my great appreciation of your sincerity and impartiality in describing your experiences of swinging and hitting styles.
You said that swinging gives superior “10/10” results when you are in perfect form, but with hitting it has been easier to maintain a fairly good level, at best “8/10” consistently.
This makes me believe that you should definitely consider returning to the swinging style. You have the talent, but need to improve consistency only.
[size=150]A few elements of swing physics[/size]
First a few words about swing physics. The factors that are relevant here are the kinetic energy, popularly called the inertia of an object, and the centrifugal force. I will simplify a little here.
The kinetic energy “inertia” is experienced in the swing when you resist the continued movement of the club backwards at the transition from backswing to downswing. Inertia is the expression of the resistance of an object to a change of its speed and direction. It is proportional to the mass (weight) and to the square of the velocity. So swing speed plays a considerably greater role than club weight in this respect.
The centrifugal force is what you feel as a radial pull when you swing the club. Like the kinetic energy, it is proportional to the mass and to the square of the speed, but in addition it has to be divided with the radius (eg of the swing). It is opposed by an equally large centripetal force which is the force you apply to prevent the club from moving away from you.
The centrifugal force is an aspect of intertia and that is why the formulas are similar.
The inertia is you great friend when using the swinging style. It keeps the club in a smooth and easily reproducible path. To be powerful, It requires sufficient swing speed and mass, the former being more important, but in Moe Norman’s experience the club also needed to be quite heavy to stabilize the movement. Here is my favourite quote again:
[size=150]The vulnerability of swing coordination [/size]
Are you aware that the swing involves 50 joints in the back and over 250 back muscles? In addition several arm and shoulder muscles.
The swing movement is a very complex process that requires all these muscles to contract and relax in a very precise and coordinated manner, steered by the brain centers responsible for the execution of learned automated muscular movement patterns.
The correct performance of this movement depends on correct feedback of myriads of “sensors” that report the length, and the tonus of the muscle, the degree of stretching of ligaments, the state (bending) of joints etc.
Now I think you realize that it is a daunting task to reproduce a complex movement exactly in the same way every time.
This is especially problematic if you have some lesion - even an unnoticeable microdamage somewhere in the back, neck or shoulders. From my experience of using a sensitive (osteopathic) diagnostic method for back treatment, such minor disturbances are quite common. Although they often are imperceptible, they may affect the execution of the swing. This is because they may lock a joint or change the length or the resting tension of a muscle (because of minor inflammatory reactions). The result is that misleading information is sent to the coordinating center in the brain.
If positioned in a crucial place even a very small lesion may cause a deviation from the correct movement pattern. You execute the well learned automated swing movement as usually, but the result is different, and you feel confused - loss of control. In such a situation, if competing, you may become nervous, which creates muscular tensions that cause increased misleading feedback. A vicious circle can occur that can have disastrous consequences like, for example, the tragic failure of Jean Van de Velde, who lost his comfortable lead in the final round of British Open 1999.
Obviously, [b]for reliable consistency, it is necessary to minimize complex coordinated swing movements.
[/b]
[size=150]Conclusions[/size]
Let the natural laws of motion guide the swing path, not coordinated bodily movements. The inertia of the club is your greatest friend - use it maximally. It can ensure the perfect reproduction of the swing without requiring any coordinated movement from your side when it comes to shaping the swing path - in stead, any muscular interference will disturb it. This is the principle of Ernest Jones - Manuel de la Torre teaching, perfected by Moe Norman.
Try heavier club-head weight. To ensure that there is no muscular interference it may perhaps be a good safety measure to increase the weight like Moe did. It increases the inertia and thereby makes the swing path more “immune” to muscular interference - the club will move “like on a rail”. But don’t overdo it. Moe was heavy and probably the club weight required is related to the body mass so he needed especially heavy clubs.
Simplify the swing to maximal possible extent. This is very important. It minimizes the risk for coordination disturbances to interfere with the swing. The complex movement pattern required in traditional two-plane swings to position the body at impact so that it hits the ball correctly is very risky from this perspective. This problem is eliminated in Moe Norman’s one-plane swing that makes it very easy to return to the correct impact point without any acrobatic coordination feats. Moe’s swing is more ingenious than generally recognized - it is an integrated whole whose every component seems to be well justified. Some teachers of “single plane” swings seem to have overlooked that and focus on just a few elements of it. It seems to me that Tim&Todd Graves are the only ones who really teach Moe’s swing properly. I want to point out that Moe called Tim Graves “Little Moe” for his very close replication of Moe’s swing.
[size=150]Prediction[/size]
By using Moe’s swing, that establishes a stable and uncomplicated fundament for the laws of motion to work automatically, I predict that you will achieve a higher success rate than hitting - close to “10/10” with the “swinging style” every time you play golf.
Dr.Jaan… that thought process is what has made more golfers lose their game and go off the tour than any other because of timing issues… the pure hitters have survived forever… Moe was the master swinger and Lag knows that up close and personal… we have also yet to see any good golfer base their swing around Moe’s ‘swinging’ theories and ideals and companies and others completely bastardize and teach incorrectly Moe’s true swinging principles.
you will find your good ‘swinger’ golfer down the end of the range with a pile of balls and not enough daylight hours to keep their swing intact… your good ‘hitter’ golfer will be at home reading a book and maybe enjoying a wine, relaxed in the knowledge its not a constant fight to produce good golf shots day in and day out
I’d say leave the ergonomics and aviation stuff to an aviation Human Factors expert Dr. Jaan.
And calling yourself an ergonomist is all well and good (I’m assuming you have the tertiary education in ergonomics, as well as the MD). Ergonomics doesn’t give you the right to analyse body motion like a swing. Ergonomics is the study of man and work… i.e., how a seating position might affect one’s ability to properly perceive and utilise a CRT inside a cockpit, or how a certain style of dial is more likely to induce error, not how well a man can swing a golf club.
Two types of people are authorities on that. Golf professionals, and biomechanics experts. I’d trust them over an MD.
Further, citing research from the 70’s and 80’s with a sample size of 13, whether it’s longitudinal or not isn’t particularly good evidence.
Nor is this hundreds of muscles are used, therefore it’s too hard stuff. It takes about 150 muscles to kiss. By that reckoning I’d be kissing my missus’ on the navel every few times I went for a peck on the cheek because it’s too hard to get it right… I mean seriously, just because the numbers are big, doesn’t mean a thing. It takes in the order of 570 parts for a bike chain to be assembled. They work more often than not… A 747 has about 6 million parts. They work more often than not…
Nearly all of the same muscles are in use in the swinging protocol as in the hitting protocol. And the one’s that ‘aren’t’ are likely in use, but to a lesser extent. It’s like cyclists’ claims of being able to pull on the pedals. They can’t. They just feel like they can.
As for your last prediction - Lao Tzu said ‘Those with knowledge don’t predict, those that predict don’t have knowledge’
I haven’t seen anyone do what Moe did. Even the people selling their lessons on how to swing like him, don’t swing like him. (And I’ll bet Lag will back me up on that one 100%)
I’d be wary of saying that people can do what Moe did easier than hitting.
You forgot that he’ll be giving the missus a nice kiss on the elbow goodnight Two 
You all really should google this guy…
Certainly thought provoking comments from Dr. Jaan.
Not sure that I fully agree, but I’m not a doctor just a range rat.
First of all, I think that individuals can be subconsciously anxious whether they swing, hit, swit, or just sitting in the golf cart- it’s part of our human experience. It’s all about letting go…letting go if you hit…letting go if you swing…letting go if you swit…or letting go in the golf cart.
Anxiety is not necessarily a deleterious process to successful endeavors in our life, unless you are Bob in the movie What About Bob. Loved that movie In fact, some may argue that without it, we perish because our survival mechanisms would be compromised.
Lets’s consider the test pilot scenario: Find the best of the best Swedish pilots and let’s have him or her walk across the Grand Canyon in which a 2x4 is strung from edge to edge- and without the use of any balancing apparatus whatsoever. I would think that about 3 steps into the process something is going to start to pucker up!
I started to think…what if every toddler, in learning how to walk, took their first steps on that 2x4. If that was the case, I doubt many of us would be around to post on this forum and to hear the Captain’s wit… RR
It seems I have struck a delicate nerve here - in the “hitters” now hitting me hard because it seems I may have stirred some “subconsious anxiety” by questioning set opinions.
It seems that some got so excited that they did not read my text properly. For you just a repeat of key points (adding some):
[size=150]My key points[/size]
Inertia enables the stabilization and “immunisation” of the swing against muscular interference. Moe clearly realized this. It is a superior means for creating a consistently repeatable swing paht.
The golf swing cannot be compared to a kiss. A consistent swing, if based on coordination, requires an exact replication of a very complex movement pattern. A kiss does not - i gives the same nice outcome with quite different movement patterns.
The Moe swing is very much simpler than the traditional swings with their setup, forcing a very complex coordination feat to return the club to the ball at impact.
The Moe swing is a perfection of the swing Manuel de la Torre has taught successfully for 5 decades with innumerable people experiencing great improvements.
[size=150]About me[/size]
A common way of fending off uncomfortable information is to question the credibility of the messenger. Please read what I wrote carefully - it is logical and simple so it does not matter who wrote it. Go by what I say, not who I am. Anyway, I am a M.D., specialist in occupational health. I was the chief adviser on ergonomics/shoulder-neck and back injuries of TCO, Sweden’s second largest association of trade unions, and was their expert witness in hundreds of higher appeal court cases regarding compensation for occupational damage.