The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

BOM,

Actually, it’s NOT a highjack at all, imho. The “Nautilus…” topic is meant to inquire about natural elements involved with humans swinging something realatively stiff and crooked to successfully propel something round. When I look at the hockey player, I wonder what role Phi or the Fibonacci sequence and spiral plays in the swing, if any. If Phi does play a role, everything else the player does to execute the swing is somehow integrated with that I suppose, and discussion of those other things connects with it too. Just an untrained opinion on my part; I want to look at everything for a sense of things. After all, it is a Small World and those fantastic pix expand the sense of it, at least to me. For what it is worth, to get a dose of inspiration every time I use my computer, I use that image for my desktop background. Also, having that image in the back of my mind somehow helps me swing more athletically, more instinctively. So, thank you for your post.

Bom,
An active shoulder turn is what defines a Ice Hockey slap shot. The main difference between the two is that an epic fail in golf (IE a beaver pelt divot) is close to perfection in ice hockey. The goal of a slap shot is to load the shaft as well, but we can use the ice as leverage, and put all our weight, strength and momentum into bending it.

It’s not a fluke that Jamie Sadlowski can bomb a golf ball, and can fire a slapshot well over 100 mph. And I bet when he hits on fat, he leaves a trench deep enough to catch a cart tire.

cheers,
Hawg

Mr. Saul Bernstein befriended us by contributing information to this topic through lag.

As a small token of appreciation, I would like to provide a link to some of Mr. Bernstein’s art.

http://www.saul-bernstein.us/Re-Draw/Re-Draw/12229222_UXywa#867591783_kPJKU

Additionally, here is an interview with Mr. Bernstein, an Emmy winning computer art pioneer:
“Saul Bernstein, Pixel Picasso” : http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n7/96_Saul_Bernstein_Pixel_Pic.php

Cheers, 1T… I’m similar in that way with topics, it’s fun to let them evolve as they may. I also have my picture/thought of the moment as my screen background- I love letting those images seep into the mind…

Hawg1,
I think the thing about ice hockey is though, they don’t really use that big a shoulder turn even though the term is used, unlike golf where the backswing shoulder turn is to 90 degrees or beyind in standard teaching- the point being that I don’t think this is necessarily great advice. I lik the point they reach in ice hockey and then the downward/forward action tightening the screws so to speak and finishing off the ‘turn’. There are obviously a lot of differences in the slap shot and the golf swing, but at the same time, a lot to learn from it.
Cheers…

Bom,
I can remember more than one coach tellin’ us to get our backs to the goalie when we wound up for a slap shot. Watch someone who can really bring it, and notice how far behind them the stick goes. I just grabbed hockey stick, loaded up for a point shot and looked in the mirror; my back is most def pointed at the target. Granted, you don’t often get this far around, especially if a defender is close, but in terms of full shoulder turn, oh yea, baby, that’s as far back as I go on a golf backswing.

And also granted, one doesn’t have to get this far, quite often the swing arc of say, up to p3 and through to p4 will suffice. Remember, it’s always a gamble in hockey, take a big windup and risk getting creamed / giving the goalie enough time to set up, vs. taking the full swing and gettin’ enough mustard on the shot to beat the goalie’s reaction time.

The other difference 'tween these two swings is the role of the blade. In golf, it’s static(well, I bet mandarin could give the formula to resolve the moments on the blade, but I’m guessin they are pretty low, especially if ya hit it on the screws). In hockey, the is very active indeed. The vast majority of shots are almost all just torquing and releasing the blade, and in that sense, the two swings are as different between chalk and cheese.

But when a NHL defenceman tees one up and blasts a 110 mph shot from the point, his shoulder turn would be within fractions of a degree as if he were teeing up a driver on the first tee and trying to hit the ball 400 yards. And some of them can.

cheers
hawg1

hawg1,

Are you describing a moment of inertia distinction between the roles of the blade in an ice hockey swing and any golf swing, both hitting and swinging golf protocols, or only the golf hitting golf protocol of ABS? Is the moment in the golf club blade swung with a swinging protocol more active like a very active moment in the ice hockey blade?

I know zero about ice hockey and slightly more, so far, about the objective and subjective differences between the golf swinging and hitting protocols; just looking for another handhold out of switting purgatory bound by slippery slopes.

Hawg1,
I do understand that stuff, but I think we’re probably talking about something slightly different. Mentioning it as I did as an aside, probably wasn’t a good idea.
There’s a tendency in golf to over use the shoulders/upper half early in the downswing and imo it comes from an unnatural and out of sync elongation of the backswing shoulder turn. There should be a blending that comes out of a more unified full body action that hockey players do quite well actually. Though in hockey the whole action is more shoulder driven since the feet have to be a lot more stable than they are in golf- It would be difficult to have a pivot driven slap shot unless you like lying on the ice. The shoulders release through the shot with the upper half going down and forward, something we obviously don’t do in golf. It’s also a much more up and down, bent over action. Like you say, there are many differences between the slap shot and the golf swing…
With an over active shoulder turn the tendency is then to try to get them back in sync and they become active at the start down. This is both from a need to realign in a coordination way, but also, due the conscious act of ‘turning the shoulders’ on the backswing, they become a focus of attention and remain something to be used and more often than not, they’re used too early. Again, something that would be good in a slap shot but not a golf swing.
I admit, it’s a bit of a subtle argument/distinction, but relevant nonetheless I think.

You have now been appointed executive vice-president in charge of motion dynamics decription. The shorter arm travel wraps around this concept like bark on a tree. Lag refers to this as having the body play catch-up to the hands and arms. I like your description of elongation, which is the default to the shorter hand/arm travel. Bang on!

Let’s see, we now have “access”, “in front of”, “inatimate object” and “elongation”. Pretty impressive stuff if you ask me.

Compression anyone! :slight_smile: RR

Heads up, folks, here comes the ghost of Happy Gilmore… .

To crib from Einstein, let’s try a thought experiment. Start with your mod1 impact drill. Now, elongate the shaft of your club maybe 35-40 percent, but do not change any of the other dynamics. Take a few swings (please, lawyer alert, do this only as a thought experiment) and notice how the impact point of the club moves backwards and into the ground.

Now, move your lower hand down the shaft, somewhere between the 2/3 and mid way point. Go to your end point of the mod1 drill. You’ll have to bend at the waist a bit to fit it in (axis tilt is most def not a prob for hockey players to achieve, something about that big ol hunk o’ lumber whackin’ ya in the ribs that provides motivation to get into the right position.)

Now turn your shoulders, so that the number on your back (oops, forgot to mention this thought experiment is done while wearing a jersey from your favorite sports team) is pointing at your target.

Congratulations, you have now achieved position A in an ice hockey slap shot. And thus ends our thought experiment

Now to be clear, a slap shot like this is a relatively rare position, one seldom has time to get to it. It’s usually only seen in practice, or when the rest or your team has successfully set you up to take a shot like this.

The other 95 per cent of the time, hockey players use mostly some version of a snap shot, which involves torquing the blade by levering it into the ice. Those shots have zippo, nadda, rien, to do with a golf swing.

But a full on slap shot? That’s lag’s mod 1 drill done with a stick that’s long enough to fit under your chin, a marginally stiffer shaft than a golf club, and the hands split apart.

But is it a pivot driven swing? Holly Hannah, yes. That’s why ABS fits so perfectly, I can Grok what lag is getting at. The muscle memory is finally a help, not a hindrance.

As for fallin’ on your keester if ya try a pivot driven swing on ice? The trick to skating is learn to control one’s edges. Once controlled, you can create a platform which will resist rotary motion to the point where your knee ligaments will fail before it slips; a properly set inside edge has zero percent lateral movement. I know we all miss steel golf spikes, but lemme tell ya, they were like banana peel specials compared to a skate blade.

Granted, there are some elements of the hockey / golf comparison that don’t transfer over. I’ve sliced WAY to many balls into the next time zone to doubt that. And yes, a hockey player will almost without fail adopt an over the top move in golf.

But take a player who knows how to shoot a decent slapshot, but plays typical hockey player golf, show him / her lag’s mod 1 video, and I’ll give you better than Vegas odds that you will soon be watching a St. Paul-level epiphany.

And one last thought, this is all for what we’ve come to know as hitting protocol. There is no parallel for a swinging protocol in hockey, 'cept maybe when ya throw your gloves off… .

In one of the other threads, lag described the difference between hitting and swinging by the position of the club, if it were let go at impact. The swingers would be down in the hole to the right, the hitters would be up in the tree to the left. Well, that club would be right beside a hockey player’s stick, were he executing a slapshot, and let go at the appropriate time.

Anyway, I’ll turn off the Happy Gilmore mode now. Thanks for readin’ eh.

hawg1

You’re speaking my language now with that hand down the shaft drill- that’s one of my favourites, and moving it through the impact area with that in place shows exactly what everything should do. Because you can’t rely on a swinging clubhead for speed, you’re forced to go inside to find it- it’s a great self teaching drill!
But you’re taking the conversation on to something different from what I was talking about. The engagement of the legs and core muscles in the slap shot is the essence of my point- it’s a whole body motion like the golfswing should be. Calling it a shoulder turn, or misunderstanding it to be just because that’s what it looks like, is what gets people in trouble in golf.

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y.

Obviously we must defer to the professional teachers who read and maintain this forum, but your quote above is pretty much the truest statement ever in golf. Well maybe “he might not PLAY to his hadicap, but he most certainly will PAY to his handicap” might be a bit truer. But not much.

As for the inadvertant thread hijack, it does look I kinda missed your point. Mea Culpa.

Regards,
hawg1

Hawg1,
I am a pro, though I’m not an ABS pro… that’s not to say that I have all the answers, but I do enjoy looking for them. It’s cool to have these ‘non golf’ athletic conversations with people who have experience in the different fields, so it’s great to hear your thoughts. I’d love to hear more about the extra pop or heavy pitches that came your way- you mentioned it in another thread somewhere. Do you have any thoughts on why some pitchers may have been able to do that even though the numbers didn’t suggest it? Did anything stand out to you that wasn’t in the ‘numbers’?
Cheers,
BOM

1tee said:

Here’s a quote from Longwave Dynamics, to illustrate the use of fibonacci ratios in stock market technical analysis:
longwavedynamics.com/

If these ratios show up over and over in nature, and even in movements of price and time in financial markets, my thought is, yes, these ratios can and do somehow apply to the golfswing.

Say hey baseball/golf fans:

Baseball pitching and similarities to the golf swing has recently been launched by hawg1 as a new ABS topic:
Cross pollination 'tween golf and baseball” in the Public Forum.

Check it out here:
http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1429&p=16828#p16806

Fascinating. And yet humans still think we’re special and somehow detached from nature. :blush:

Were there any discussions about such concepts in “Golf in the Kingdom”?
It’s been 20 years since I read the book, but I would imagine some references might be in there.

There were two books by Michael Murphy I read over a decade ago. The other one is “The Kingdom of Shivas Irons”. I’ll re-read them from the perspective of the first Nautilus post and ABS.

My hunch is you are onto something, but my memory is precariously thin now about these two books except that they were mind stretching, provocative fun. It will be good reading them again.

Teebox: Thanks for doing a re-read for the forum’s benefit…I only remember a few things from it: something about when Shivas was hitting balls over a steep ravine into the deep darkness, there was some mention of his midsection. Also how the printed word captured the native dialect: “yooz yer play club knew”…which was a way of saying “Use your play club now”…something like that.

Looking forward to what you may find. :slight_smile: RR

RR,

I have a strong hunch there are readers here who can weigh in on this and I hope they will.

In the meantime, I will get into the reading.

Whatever I may come up with to post here, no matter how hard I try, it will reveal too little of the wonder, fun, and wisdom in those imaginative books.

I’ll ask John Allen about it. He mentioned being involved in the “Extraordinary Golf” series also. I saw his name credited in one of the books last night.