I’ve been perusing this board anonymously over the past eight or nine months but today I was compelled to post my thanks for the information found in this board. Like most people, I’ve still got much work to do on my golf swing but let me share with you all the parts you have played in today’s minor revelation.
I’ve been fortunate in my life to have been born with enough innate coordination and athletic ability to have played collegiate athletics at a high level. However, a few years ago I had a bad knee injury playing soccer, so after surgery, recovery, and subsequent retirement from that sport, I decided to dedicate my competitive endeavors to golf. Coming to the game of golf after growing up swinging a baseball bat, my golf swing had initially suffered from a number of different problems, but primarily from an over-the-top move back to the ball. Last year I thought that I had largely cured that problem, but I was left with a small but consistent ‘pull’ on my “game improvement” irons, which I had purchased as part that effort to really ‘get good’ at golf. That persistent problem led me to seek “help” from a local “pro,” which ultimately sent me into a ball-striking free-for-all that culminated in my finding my way to this forum as part of my journey of self-golfing-discovery.
Today, while hitting balls at the range, I became suspicious that my game-improvement irons were the source of a lot of my troubles–that the reason I could only produce pushes and pulls instead of draws and fades were these P.O.S irons. So, I went to the range attendant and asked him for any bladed iron that he had–turns out all he really had was a slippery-gripped 1960s or 1970s era Kroydon muscle-back five iron. Sure enough, my little pull turned into a little fade, and my little pushes turned into little draws. Suddenly, I could feel the feedback of the club and the shaft as I swung it–unbelievable the difference. So thanks to everyone on this forum for touting the benefits of heavier, flatter, older clubs. I would never have thought to try one had I not visited this website.
You can bet that I will now be scouring Craig’s List looking for an $80 set of well-preserved 40 year-old muscle backs, costing me a fifth of the price of my r7s…Are the persimmons as much fun to hit?
Sounds great crr,
That’s a great big already…the persimmons are only going to help point you in a similar direction…they are great feedback producers and swing aids
Whilst we do go on a lot about equipment…it isn’t because we hate the companies making them or their right to try to make money…it is that their concept of lighter, longer , perimeter weighted, upright lie angled equipment just is NOT in tune with helping a golfer long term and is not based on the equipment that the great ball strikers in history used.
You only have to scour the ebays and craiglists to see thousands and thousands of the new gear piling up on their sites because people are in desperation and cashing in their $400 drivers and $1000 irons whilst they can get some return on them…so they can then buy the new great hope $500 driver and $1000 irons that claim to be the longest and best…
They part all this hard earned cash into the latest greatest and yet their game has fallen farther into disrepute …because the equipment comes with all kinds of tall tales of better golf and longer shots, yet people aren’t seeing it…
feedback of the club and the strike during the swing is vital…you get that with the older, flatter, heavier equipment…and it all helps blend the swing into the truer sensations.
Welcome to ABS…let us know your next feel from the persimmons…they are great swing aids and all this old stuff is bought for a bargain these days because people think it is 'No Good" based on what they have been told…as you just saw with your own performance with the old heavier blade iron that idea is very far off base.
I held off buying newer clubs as long as I could as I developed my swing for the exact reason you detailed–I didn’t want to be the idiot who bought a new driver every year thinking that the club was going to fix the swing. I had a pair of Tommy Armour 845s which were lighter and perimeter-weighted, and when the hosel flew off the seven-iron, I figured I had gone as far as I could with those clubs. Ironically, I was right–except that instead of buying newer clubs I needed older ones. I was hitting that Kroydon 5 iron with twenty yards short of my r7 four iron…
I have taken exactly three lessons in my life, and I doubt if I’ll ever take another (except maybe from lagpressure if (1) I save enough money, (2) my wife lets me, and (3) he would accept me). I don’t profess to be an expert on the golf swing, but I had read Hogans books prior to my lessons. The first thing that idiot pro told me to do was to narrow my stance, stand up straighter, bring my left toe back to perpendicular to the target line, and stop swinging on such a shallow plane!
Adding to the earlier post, I also wanted to note that the ‘430 line’ concept was also instrumental in my understanding the importance of maintaining the proper spine orientation throughout the swing and is largely responsible for curing my OTT. Can I ask one more question–how can I tell if I’m hitting or swinging?
Sell your R7’s and buy a new (old) set and use the savings to complete (1) above.
Regarding (2), tell the wife that your girlfriend lets you do anything you want…that’ll quiet that front one way or the other. If she really loves you for you - she’ll encourage your excellent decision.
As for (3) - just tell Lag that you’ve got Captain Chaos’ blessing and you’re in!
No. Only one question for “casual members” per day allowed.
I feel the older equipment goes beyond just how it performs. There’s a unique love for the game shared by many here at ABS. The hours and patience required to become better ballstrikers only attracts those who truly love the game and the process of doing such. Those who buy ‘performance enhancing’ equipment on the other hand prefer the process of working at something else to give them the money to ‘improve’ their golf.
That love of the game shown by many here in turn attracts us to equipment made with love. You can just see the block of wood being shaped, smoothed, polished, the whipping being wrapped. Or an iron head being heated until red hot, stamped into shape and then hand ground and painted. Someone’s gone to that effort just for us. The clubs have soul and stay with us for decades, even a lifetime, not a year or two. That to me is part of being at one with the game and definitely closer to that elusive zone all athletes want.
Now compare that to a modern driver coming off an assembly line. How can anything hollow inside have soul?
The modern iron also off the assembly line–empty in the middle, built up around the edges. Does that somehow resemble a person who has no substance but is all talk?
I don’t know how one could follow those last few posts, but that never stopped me before. Welcome, CRR, this truly is an incredible place. In the short time I have been here, I have learned an amazing amount about what constitutes a proper ballstriker’s form. This is a masters class in advanced ballstriking, to be sure.
And unlike a lot of instruction that just talks and can’t do, Lag walks the walk by posting swings and talking about his recent outings. Twomasters is also a key member of the teaching staff and to have someone of his playing caliber, teaching and providing us insight is invaluable. I feel very privileged and fortunate to be able to learn from Lag and Two. As well, there are a number of others on the site who have wide and deep knowledge, practical experience and all are very helpful and illuminating.
I think the key to Lag’s approach is just that–he has a logical, step-by-step approach. It is brilliant in its simplicity, beautiful and artistic in its approach and demanding of his students, a wonderful recipe for success. CCR, you won’t be sorry once you start the journey. Welcome and dive right in.
with the caveat that i may be wrong…if you think of the hands/wrists as active motors (hitting) rather than passive hinges (swinging) that is a key difference into impact, thereafter the hitter resists CF by working the club left
Yes, the persimmons are as fun. You may have to go through a few to find one to your liking. Playing with persimmon and forged irons is so satisfying. When everyone in your group is playing the “new technology”, and your right there with them in GIR’s, well, it’s just very rewarding. I’ve even went so far as to purchase some old wound balls to play with. (To protect the persimmons). Your going to get outdriven much of the time, but every so often you’ll catch one just perfect and your right out there with everyone else. I don’t post too often so I want to give credit to my friend Bentshaft for leading me to the ABS site. He says my ballstriking has improved drastically since I started the module work as well. Or should I say module fun?
Can I ask, in your opinion, how many modules are needed to get a good working foundation? I think I could afford a few, but I would be fearful of starting to ‘lift the veil’ so to speak, and having to wait a few years (little one on the way in the fall) to finish the full reveal?
I’m on module 2. It’s my opinion that module 1 would give anyone a good working foundation. My ball striking improved exponentially after mod 1. My “flushes” are more frequent, and my misses not that far off. I do module one every morning. It’s addictive. Perhaps some of the more advanced students will express their opinion.
Most golfers have either downswing problems or post impact issues. So by module #3, you will have any of the big issues cleaned up at that point.
Then we start refining things through applying opposing forces, hand attitudes, how to transition the club and sequence the pivot and forearm rotation
into a rock solid unit by further developing our cohesive body tension. Once the core stuff is in place, we learn to properly aim, and then learn to work
the ball both left and right the correct way, the easy way really. Then we get into playing golf, how to hit all the required shots and so forth.
There will be putting modules on the way. This is really exciting stuff… rolled in 5 putts outside 10 feet today including a 60 footer, just barely missing out on my personal best
score out at Mare today with a heart breaking lip out on 17.