TGM perfect?

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
61

EA is really more of a swingers thing, or maybe the TGM hitting approach if driving the right arm through impact which I believe to be a horrific method of hitting a golf ball, because it promotes pivot stalling through impact… and either drives the shaft off plane, over rotates the clubface through impact or both. I don’t even see it being useful for chipping or pitch shots.

EA (extensor action) for those who don’t know is a pushing of the right arm that is used to straighten or keep the left arm straight.

TGM’s premise is that the body should act like a machine, with a stationary head or center and a fixed or constant swing radius. The problem is that if you were to build such a machine, I am sure any ball striking machine would be bolted to the ground. Unfortunately we as humans only have a few spikes on our shoes, therefore we need an increase in knee flex to increase vertical ground pressures so that we can have a platform to drive the pivot with active resistance in the feet.

This of course lowers the head, and ALL great strikers to this. It’s a very false assumption that the head is the center of the golf swing.

bend.jpg
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As far as it’s use here in what I promote, it’s a very overrated concept, for the simple fact there have been many many great strikers that do not have a rigid straight left arm at the top of the backswing. If the hand travel is very short, then it can work well as Hogan applied, but the advantage of having a bit of flex in the left arm is that it acts as an over acceleration inhibitor at transition for better players. The lack of tension does help drop the shaft more behind you on the downswing,
which then allows you to rotate the torso and shoulders more level without coming OTT. This is a great move.

With a rigid left arm, then a shorter backswing works well, if you can keep the left arm on or below the shoulder line from a DTL view… and of course flat gear does wonders also.

The only time I really prescribe EA to a student is if they really have a problem with an over bent left arm… then it makes sense to learn to apply it.

Another confusion about EA and the direction in which it is applied. Most TGM instructors teach that the direction of pressure is in line with the shaft… but if you read TGM, this is not the direction Homer was suggesting. So again you have this lost in translation stuff going on.

If you actually read the book, Homer makes it very clear the direction it needs to go… I’ll leave that for a bit of self discovery for anyone who needs to know!

But since driving the right arm actively or passively is to me… more than a questionable procedure, I found this one of the primary reasons for having to jump ship on TGM, because both of Homer’s methodologys suggest doing so. There is no where in the book Homer discusses the right arm resisting straightening to stabilize lowpoint, limit clubface rotation post impact, aid in keeping the shaft on plane, tightening the swing radius to increase pivot rotational speed and so forth.

If you take a closer look, you will see a lot of bent left arms not only at the top but at impact also. I am sure many more major championships have been won with bent left arms than straight ones… so in that sense, it lacks historical support there as well.

62

I am sure you meant to keep the left arm stright.

YES… DO AS I…DON’T DO AS I TYPO! :smiling_imp:

63

lag,

Paul Bertholy, in an era when the trail arm was considered by many as the cancer in golf, developed a rather different view on the role of the trail arm. His concepts, I feel, are right up your alley.

Just some quotes from Golf Swing Construction 101 – The Bertholy Method Revisited:

[b][i]“The CLAW consists of two 90-degrees angles. The first is formed at the wrist joint as the right wrist bends backward and the palm of the right hand faces away from the golfer, a 90 degree angle is formed between the back of the right hand and forearm. The second 90-degree angle is formed at the right elbow joint, as the forearm and humerus bone (upper arm) form another right angle. Once the CLAW is formed, the position it seeks is the next critical factor in attaining maximum containment. In order to achieve compression filled impact, the aspiring golfer must strive to return the point of the right elbow in front of the belly button (centripetal positioning). It is as if the right elbow has a third eye, which wants to look at the belly button.”

“To the detriment of the golfer, the reflex action is an instinct that constantly yearns to transform the CLAW into a ROD. The CLAW is an unnatural form for the right arm so it must be conditioned relentlessly to perform its vital function. In fact, the right arm hits, maybe even harder than the left arm, but it must be always be subservient to the master left arm the ROD. It must always hit as a CLAW. ”
[/i][/b]
It seems to me that you and Paul Bertholy are not that far apart. Both sides are active, the lead arm as a ROD, the trail arm is not straightening, striving for containment, and hitting like a ‘crooked dog’s hind leg’. :wink: It is also a very systematic approach involving lot’s of work and really meant only for the serious golfer capable of long term commitment. A rather heavy swing pipe is used for many exercises.

64

Thanks all you guys for shedding light. Mandrin, I am familiar with Bertholy…those are interesting points.

also…one a previous post …
Mandrin said

I liked that. That’s what I’m trying to do…etch a substantial (proper) groove in my grey matter.
eagle

65

also…I think Lag cleared it up for me that if one is pursuing an ABS pivot driven swing…he can forget about EA. As Forrest Gump said…"that’s one less thing to worry about. "

66

I have made up two simple figures to demonstrate Homer Kelly’s misunderstanding of impact. It is a good example of how false scientific notions can lead to instruction which does not hold any water.

mom_exc_1.GIF
Fig1 shows shows very schematically what happens to the angular momentum during impact. The height of the vertical columns represent the magnitude of angular momentum.

During impact the angular momentum of the clubhead is shared with the ball but no angular momentum is lost. The total amount remains constant, as shown.

mom_exc_2.GIF
Fig2 shows what Homer Kelley feels is the ideal impact situation, i.e., zero deceleration for the clubhead. However this implies, as shown in Fig2, that its angular momentum remains constant.

But then none is available for the ball which hence can’t move. Hence mentioning that the ideal impact involves zero deceleration is a contradiction in terms.

Homer Kelley erroneously thinks that one can do something during impact such as resisting deceleration or sustaining/manipulation of the line of compression. Even claiming sustaining the line of compression to be the secret of golf. Well there is no secret here just basic misunderstanding and incorrect teaching as a consequence.

67

Mandrin,

What do you suspect Homer was trying to say?
If we assume he was in error using incorrect terminology…
How should he have phased the idea of minimizing a loss of clubhead velocity post impact?
I suspect this is what he was getting at…

Hogan clearly had a similar intention when he stated that maximum clubhead speed reaches it’s maximum
just beyond impact…

I think most would agree that if this were measured, it would not come back with supporting results… but
I do believe that this “intention” is vital to swinging the club properly. If you tell yourself… that this can’t be done
and just forget any intention or effort to do so… you end up with a less than desirable golf swing.

I do suspect that if no ball was present, and Hogan made a full motion swing without a divot either, he would reach
maximum velocity past lowpoint, or where impact would have been…

So this does show proper intentions.

68

amazon.co.uk/Homer-Kelleys-G … 402&sr=1-1

Perhaps start there Mandrin.

Having followed the TGM perfect thread on LBG, again I think you are doing the admin a disservice with your account of the threads closure.
The admin posted the following:

The entire site is about discussing TGM and Homer’s work, there is simply no point in having a thread to decide if its perfect or not.

69

Homer Kelley did say, in his class audios, that the more bent the Right Arm is at Impact the stronger the shot. In an earlier edition of TGM, he also said to treat the feel of after Impact as though it was Impact, even though the ball is gone. The “normal” position of the Arms (6-A-4)-that until after the Follow-Through, the Left Arm is never bent, the Right Arm is never straight.

Regarding Extensor Action, IMO it is best to think of it as extension without tension.

70

Styles,

Disparage -

  • To speak of in a slighting or disrespectful way; belittle.
  • To speak contemptuously of; belittle
  • To damage the reputation of

When posting

I am sure the administrator must have had in mind his own site administrator LB, :laughing:, who, with Michael Jacobs in mind, posted -

I am sure that Michael Jacobs, if by any chance reading this thread on LBG, would not have quite the impression that he has been given a compliment on LBG but rather been dealt with in a manner which fit rather neatly into the definition of disparage. :unamused:

71

Yeah, right!

As I have documented earlier in this thread, HK knew that clubhead speed slows down by approx 20% through impact. He even nailed the typical smash factor that is so often referred today. TGM is 100% in accordance with Mandrin’s figure 1 as far as the meeting between the clubhead and the ball is conserned. But HK understood that there was more to impact than just a meeting between two free flowing objects. So he addressed other impact related topics. The part that discuss compression leak as a function of hinge action is very interesting and explains to a large extent why the dreaded slice is the big distance looser. And why the natural draw is the distance winner. And basically how every type of hinge action may affect ball compression. HK also addressed the influence of lag pressure through impact. As far as swing speed is conserned, he made it very clear that it is the clubhead speed at separation that counts, and that speed is not 100% given by clubhead speed at first contact.

Homer was miles ahead of Mandrin when it came to understand the impact zone. Mandrin’s impact model only covers the most basic element which is transmission of mass-velocity from clubhead to the ball. This is basically useless when it comes to discussing what it takes to achieve good impact alignments. And to use such a simplified model to prove that HK was wrong is even more of a joke than it would be to use Newton’s mechanics to prove that Einsteinst theory of relativity is wrong.

The only thing Mandrin’s figure 2 shows is how massively he is misrepresenting TGM.

TGM isn’t perfect by any measures but the parts that address impact physics is pretty damned good, IMO.

Gee, I hope I 'm not to subtle this time as well!

72

I still don’t get it Mandrin. You monitored a thread on another forum, then came running here to tell ABS students all about it. As I don’t know if you have a LBG account, I don’t know whether you were posting on the LBG thread or just reading it and then rushing back here to report on it - why not discuss it on LBG, why come here and start a thread about it - to discuss how you feel with some like minded souls perhaps? But isn’t that your grievance with LBG - that they are blinkered?

Incidentally, this week Lynn Blake is much too busy teaching at The Barclays to administrate his website - he has had administrators working for him for some time now, you wouldn’t possibly be expecting him to be administrating his own website, would you? :laughing:

As you were not Lynn Blake when he made his post, how could you possibly know who he had “in mind” when he made that post? Unless of course you have added mind reading to your seemingly unending list of talents :open_mouth: regardless, Lynn worked personally with Homer, he has earned the right to sling some mud at those who belittle HK’s work whilst hanging on to his coat tails :wink:

73

Well, I hope Lynn can get some of those guys straightened out on the PGA Tour, because I just turned on the event to have a look, as several have mentioned to me that the tour is playing a great classic style golf course “Ridgewood” which some thought might have been of interest to me.

I can only say I am so disappointed with the poor quality of ball striking it makes my stomach turn. I have yet to see a player hit a fairway off the tee. The leader of the tournament is hitting only 46% of his fairways… and after taking a look at the stats, I noticed in the 3rd round he hit only 36% of his fairways and shot 65.

Something is seriously wrong with how they are setting up these golf courses. So the guy is 69th in driving accuracy, and #1 in putting, and leading the event. As he rolls in another 20 foot par saving putt… I gently click the remote on the telly to watch a bit of the US Am… what do I see? Both players spraying their drives sideways into oblivion. Is this the proper education for the PGA to come?

Well at least here… there is some real rough. Certainly more than the US Open or The Open, Masters or PGA Championship.
Chung’s drive is in some deep fescue and his first swing, he literally can only advance the ball about 6 yards. His second shot… goes about 8 yards and he is still in the deep grass. I wish we would see this on the PGA Tour. Instead, we see Dustin Johnson driving again 40 yards off line with another clear shot to a green out of matted down light rough.

What do Lynn and these guys work on with tour players? Chipping, wedges and putting I hope.

74

Lag,

After reading this I got a little confused about your views on Extensor Action.
You wrote (a while back on ISG):

Applying EA (directed below plane!) does a lot of good things for me but as you stated somewhere it may conflict with keeping a frozen right arm… Can you please elaborate?

75

I do think ideally it is better to have a straight left arm…if you have things set up correctly in the rest of the swing… However, there is nothing “wrong” with having a slightly bent left arm. Personally I am a straight left armer for the most part… but I don’t think it is mandatory. I think what Hogan did was ideal really. But you also have to implement the correct actions to take advantage of what a firmer straight left arm does offer.

It’s really more of a case by case issue. A bent left arm at the top would not work for the kind of swing I have… contrary… a straight left arm would not work well for certain players who fight over acceleration issues at transition as many do. A bend in the left arm at the top can be a big reminder to be gentle at transition…

So in all fairness, it’s a slightly complicated situation that needs to fit the player’s hand speed, and pivot effectiveness through impact and beyond.

76

Lynn and his staff are actually conducting The Barclays Golf Academy for the private clients and guests of Barclays Capital. Last year they gave ove 1,600 individual lessons during the tournament.

77

lag, I think that HK has made his the long standing believe in golf that one somehow can get the body into shot. This is mentioned either as force/pressure exerted on the ball with the clubhead or somehow increasing the effective striking mass of the clubhead. It is a notion which permeates many sports, such a baseball, golf, soccer, tennis, etc…

Ike S. Handy in ‘How To Hit a Golf Ball Straight’ -

“No degree of speed in the clubhead will supplant the power of swinging the weight of the body into the stroke“

Mindy Blake in ‘Golf – The Technique Barrier’

“To my mind, there are two extremes to the method of making contact – the high speed swing, and the high pressure swing – and the high pressure swing is superior”

In many sports, such as for instance, soccer, karate, or boxing it is legitimate to analyze increasing the effective striking mass being directly related to the ability to maintain body rigidity at impact. In golf we are connected sideways via a long slender flexible implement and one can not really augment the striking mass as is implied in the idea of heavy hit.

We, human beings are complex mechanisms, having slow reaction times, emotions to complicate matters and a mind to play tricks. I don’t pretend to have the answer only some suggestions.

There are clubhead speed and precision/repeatability of impact conditions.

Swinging slower, more deliberate, feeling heavy, will often produce better and more consistent impact conditions, by producing superior impact alignments/path. This I presume has produced slowly and steadily the notion that a heavy hit, getting the body into the shot, is better than a high speed swing.

Another notion is that of structural integrity. It is said that a relaxed muscle is quick yet when feeling super connected, arms kept tight to chest, legs tight and springy, short compact swing, one produces also very nice results. This might also induce the notion of heaviness in the golf swing.

Anyone who really want to investigate this matter it is really straight forward to perform the experiment. It requires measuring accurately the speed of clubhead at the onset of impact and at departure of ball and moreover the departure speed of the bal.

Knowing the mass of the ball than gives than the effective striking mass of the clubhead as:

Meff = m * u2/(v1-v2)

m = mass of ball
u2 = ball departure speed
v1-v2 = change in clubhead speed due to impact
Meff = the effective striking mass

If clubhead and ball collide perfectly than one should measure a value for the effective striking mass slightly larger than the head itself due to some contribution of hosel and nearby shaft.

lag, if you know a way to program an Iron Byron to either hit speedy/light or slow/heavy than the matter of ‘heavy hit’ could all be settled with one simple experiment. :wink:

78

I wouldnt exactly call THIS youtube.com/watch?v=nS7C9I_TAJM individual lessons… Trying to teach 20 people at once and fit them into one scheme is pretty useless imo.

79

Poor choice of words on my part, not Mr. Blakes. I should have said individual and group lessons (reference Day 1 on Youtube, which you may have missed). I would not call it one scheme, but rather one basic geometry.

80

Styles,

Your posts reminded me that I had almost forgotten the extreme fun exchanging with TGMers. :mrgreen:

Jut put a tiny dent into their believe system and the fun starts, absolutely guaranteed. :laughing:

Have never been allowed to post even once on LBG…so darned scared of a bit of science. :unamused:

Rather funny and paradoxical since Kelley made it very clear that his work was scientific in nature.

“1-A. LAW
All the laws operating in a Golf Stroke – Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials and Structure, etc., etc., have been known since at least the days of Isaac Newton. No instructor, player or congressman put these laws into anything. Nor can they or anyone else be exempted from compliance with them. Laws are the Modus Operandi of their Principle.”

When questioned TGMers quickly start down playing it strongly but ‘science’ is definitely meant to be the back bone of TGM.

However, once there is a serious pretension to be scientific than scientific analysis/criticism is eminently appropriate. :exclamation: