Some really good food for thought from lcd. I must admit that intuitively I’ve been thinking the same thing lately. I find that when looking for a nice vintage set on ebay the shaft flex is a big factor. I prefer to not have to reshaft, not just for the additional cost (that can quickly make the “good deal” not look so good), but for the many factors that lcd has discussed.
Isn’t it interesting that so many of the vintage designs have the shaft flex engraved in the clubhead?! Sounds to me like they weren’t anticipating a lot of reshafting. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that so many of the best iron designs came from “the greatest generation”… those cats knew what they were doing and I don’t think they were expecting their great iron head designs to eventually end up with Project X shafts in them.
I do prefer the shafts made in the 1950’s that came stock stiff.
My 59 Dynas have heavy stock poles in them… and they are a wonderful shaft…
My M 85’s I transplanted a set of TT #1’s from a different set but did weight them up some with tape.
I do think the tape does transfer into the ball, and that set feels fine.
50’s and 60’s regular shafts are just too loose for me… I can hit them in the short irons, but they do get a bit squirrelly in the longer irons.
Can you get an X400 shaft these days?
There is no doubt that a lot of insight and technology has been lost in this modern age of hollow golf clubs.
As an addendum to my previous post… I find it interesting how Lag will take a particular set of irons with different playing characterics, be it due to shaft flex or swingweight or overall weight, and dial in his “feel” for that day. I think it’s a great exercise in getting in tune with your gear that most golfers simply ignore… perhaps because they don’t have the skill or the feel to be able to make the necessary adjustments. Regardless, I think it’s a good exercise.
I mentioned to Lag that in preparation for the Vegas tournament I’ve been using persimmon exclusively anytime I played or practiced over the last 8 weeks. Last night I pulled out my 460cc Titleist 905S with a high-tone 95 gram shaft to see if I could still use the “new” stuff. I hit about 20 balls very straight and pretty long but I couldn’t feel a damn thing. After those 20 balls I could sense that I was over-accelerating and I had to grab my Penna Mod 1 to get me grounded again and was able to stripe the next 10 feeling the clubhead again. I officially cannot stand the new shit… can’t stand the sound, can’t stand the feel (or lack thereof), can’t stand the sound, oh… did I mention I can’t stand the sound?! I watch the tour now with such disdain as I long for the old days. Accuse me of having “ole man’s syndrome”, but my respect for today’s players has dropped a ton. I would love nothing more than to see the top 50 pony up 100k each and, using TRGA rules, see who can really golf their ball. My guess is that 30 of em would find an excuse to not be exposed,
Lag I sent an email to True temper this afternoon asking them the same question, I should get an answer early next week. I’m thinking I’d like to dial in X2s in the irons and X3s in the woods but I’d like to get my hands on a 4 and a 5 to play around with that too, it can’t hurt to try but the first glance from the site says they don’t keep anything that gram weights over a 3. I think they melt the heavys back down but who knows. Right now all I want to do is get one set of clubs set up the best I can and see how much game I’ve got. Everything is so screwed up with everybody using all this light junk and trash balls that it makes me think it’s actually easier to shoot competetive numbers with decent equipment that actually works.
I’ve got a better idea of the post impact thrust than I ever have in my life and that looking back on it was the hole in my move. I never swung it hard enough left post impact and fought a bleeder a lot. I see it plain as day on the old tape. I can get out there and hit it more aggressively than I ever have. More than anything right now the biggest obstacle I see is finding a ball that I can spin enough and get a reasonable decent angle with. If I tee it up for real I won’t be fluttering it up in the air like everybody else and I need to find something that runs out of gas in the air. You know what I’m talking about. Distance is the last thing I’m concerned about. Furyk has been top 5 in the world for 10 years and he couldn’t break an egg. No knock of course, he’s a phenomenal striker and tactician but I could fly him with wood. With a 975 and a good steel shaft I’m 30 by him. If he can play from where he hits it distance is not a problem at a competetive level, stopping the ball is. But I can figure something out.
I totally get messing around with all the classic gear, it’s just never been my thing. Right now I just want to see if I can play a little bit with what I know like the back of my hand. I’m younger than you anyway, I grew up with the little Taylor Mades and they felt plenty solid to me. I don’t even mind the small Ti heads like the old Titleists in a driver. There’s not a lot of feedback but it’s not like I hit 50 drivers at a time on the range anyway, that’s just for the long tracks where you gotta bust it way out there.
I read somewhere today that the M43 that Greg Norman won the 86 British Open with had an X400 shaft tipped 2 inches. Amazing. Until this thread I never even knew there was anything heavier than a X100!
I’ll ask Ron Chalmers next time we play golf if he has any leads on heavy stiff shafts…
He loved my 59 Dynas when he picked them up… he said he had similar stuff in his Spalding Tour Edition “bird on the ball” irons from the 70’s . Ron ran both the Rifle shaft company and Sounder years ago. But he said nobody makes stuff like that anymore.
Today’s mentality is how far you hit your wedges… it’s really silly stuff going on…
Will do, been checking online stores and such, golfsmith site said if I ordered now they’d be in on April 23. Ya right. Had to order them individually for 13 something a piece for the iron shafts. These guys really know customer service. It’d be cool if I could become a distributor for anybody who wants the good stuff. I’d never charge more than 7 bucks a piece and still make a little. But we’ll see what they say.
Interesting idea…
I can’t help draw comparisons with the whole world with this stuff. People have no idea how to even want or think at this point, everything is spoon fed through the tv, and 99% of it is worthless crap you don’t need and will most likely eff you up but a few suits make a ton of money from us ‘consumers’ so it keeps on rolling. I’m cutting this rant off here because if I don’t we could be here while…
Ditto. I just figure any time I go to any course whether what I’m using would be approved and get the nod of affirmation from the old timers at Prestwick. If not, chuck it.
That should be ultimate acid test…
In fact, speaking of conformity, we should really develop an ABS pledge of allegiance regarding what you’re willing to use on a golf course…
“they may take our lives, but they’ll never take away our freeeeeeeeeedommmmmmm!!!”
Has anyone got any thoughts on the Apex 4 shafts regarding weight, performance, how they compare to the DGs and which one they’re closest to…
Cheers…
BOM
I’ve never hit a 5 so I don’t know. Maybe it’s a lot stiffer in the tip than a 4, maybe not. They have to be a lot lighter than even an X2 I would assume but maybe worth weighing and putting on a deflection board to see… But after seeing the differences in the weights that Rob posted on the 4s I just want to get some big DGs in everything and get some real weight in my hands.
Been looking at some info on the Tour Issue DGs and the X7s. PR PR PR, more BS. The X7 has the same weight at 132g in a .355 taper iron shaft as an X2 but is supposedly stiffer in the butt and the tip. Every review I’ve read though says that the flex falls between an X1 and X2. Just like the TIs its the same ol’ same ol’ with a fancy sticker and bigger pricetag. Plus the X7 isn’t even available in any wood shafts. God forbid anyone would want weight in a driver shaft, then they might actually find their tee shots and maybe even hit some fairways.
I haven’t found any X4s but I haven’t heard back from True Temper yet. If they have any I’ll snap them up but if not it’s gonna be X2s in the irons to keep the SW up and X3s in the woods and wedges as that’s the heaviest I can find. I’ll play around with the iron shafts and may hard step them if they fly a little loose. The woods are gonna be trial and error for a while.
I just got off the phone with the Tour Dept at True Temper, another bad joke with me the butt of it. All the shafts are made in China now (of course, what isn’t) and the manufacturing process is totally different with lessened QC. That’s why you have to find the spines now when you never had to worry about them years ago. They’ll mark them of course and actually match the weights in the set the way they did for over 50 years (for free then) and then call them ‘Tour Issues’ and charge $35.00 a shaft and put a hideous silkscreen logo on them that says I’M A HUGE SUCKER. The tolerance is +/- 1.5g either way on the plain DGs and you do have to find the spine now to keep the effective flex the same throughout the set.
Mr Man offered me such a deal, I could become a distributor with a minimum $1500.00 initial order at $12.00 per DG shaft. I told him I’d think about it…whatever… More crap at triple retail without the quality of even 10 years ago. He also said that X4s and S5s “don’t exist” any more. I wonder if he would have had the same answer if I had a Tour Card? (hint hint)
LCD, I think I mentioned that in our PM session…I haven’t seen or heard of a 200, 300, 400 or 500 in a tour van or club factory for close to 10 years… everything always says X100 or S100 on it…I thought maybe I didn’t look hard enough or ask enough but it sounds like the truth coming from the TT people themselves… I think even on a few occasions I specifically asked for X300 iron shafts or whatever and they always said X100 …X100…X100… what on earth has all this equipment junk come to?
We can order the X2 & 3 but they’re a special order and it takes forever to get them. Then you have to find the spines, which I guess is pretty important now that the QC sucks and I’m gonna have to figure out how to do that too. This is so stupid, I think less work was involved in bringing the Berlin Wall down…
I have heard of people doweling the tips of shafts. Does anyone here have any experience with this? This might help to produce the tip stiffness and weight that is desired.
LCD
How about an S300/400 shaft and tipping it 2". Will that make it a heavy X shaft?
I just got a set of Golden Ram woods which have a DG R5.5 shaft. Does anyone know the flex on that one?
