Science Validates Erickson

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
84

The fact is that we can and have used GEARS to measure all of this. We know when the maximum hand speed during a swing occurs. We know the rate of hand acceleration and deceleration. We know the acceleration profile of the clubhead and where it peaks. We can measure the bend and droop of a shaft and see exactly how and where it loads and kicks.

The bottom line is that everything the club gets is ultimately transported to it through the hands. That transfer is done with both forces and torques at the grip and then into the club. The maximum speed of the hands is about mid downswing/left arm parallel. Once the club starts to throw out outside the hands (which is has to do in all swings to hit the ball) it starts putting force back into the golfer that has to be dealt with. The hands start slowing down because it’s simply impossible to overcome all of that and keep accelerating. This causes the club and shaft to respond in kind and it kicks forward. ALL golf shots EVER HIT with a full swing have the clubshaft in lead deflection at impact regardless of any subjective feels or intentions. There’s simply no way around it and, frankly, the heavier the clubhead the more lead deflection the club should be in.

I really don’t even know why it’s an argument or why anybody cares. It doesn’t invalidate any teaching or instruction in ABS. Just because it doesn’t/can’t happen doesn’t mean it’s not valid as an intent or objective. Just because the hand speed picks up very quickly during early to mid downswing doesn’t mean the intent to have the fastest speed post impact isn’t valid. We don’t perceive things in real time during the swing and it takes different intents and feels to make things happen in the right time and space. Feeling something earlier or later than it really happens is okay. If the instruction is sound and the results are good then it doesn’t matter if it matches up to reality.

85

I don’t think I agree with much of what you’re saying here, but I want to make sure I fully understand you first.

The bottom line is that everything the club gets is ultimately transported to it through the hands. That transfer is done with both forces and torques at the grip and then into the club.

Assuming that you’re not merely saying the trite tautology that “the hands are the only parts of us that touch the club so ultimately it’s the hands that impart anything to the club,” are you saying that the hands are the only motors so-to-speak that applies a force/torque on the club? That is, if the trail elbow is “frozen” and the torso is applying more force/torque than the forearms/wrists just before and at impact, do you consider that still as only the hands imparting anything to the club?

The maximum speed of the hands is about mid downswing/left arm parallel. … ALL golf shots EVER HIT with a full swing have the clubshaft in lead deflection at impact regardless of any subjective feels or intentions.

Are you basing this bold assertion on observation or theory? If the former, are you considering the techniques employed by those you’re observing? If the latter, is your model based on a particular technique or assumption on what the golfer is doing?

86

I’m simply saying that the hands are the only thing touching the club. Anything you do with your body ultimately has to make it to the hands and then to the club. If you move your right pinky toe in a certain way and you’re confident that it has some impact on your swing then that right pinky toe movement has to get to the hands in order to get to the club. There is no other way.

I’m also saying that there are invisible things going on. You may see a certain motion being performed, but the forces and torques are hidden. The actual direction of a force or a torque is hidden because it’s invisible. This is one of the problems looking at still images of swings. You could, for example, take a still of a golfer mid downswing and note the position of his wrist, the angle of the clubface, the position of the club, etc. and make assumptions…but the fact of the matter is the force at that particular point in the swing could be perpendicular to the shaft and the golfer could be torquing the club longitudinally around itself an incredible amount. You may not see it on video either because the direction and amounts of force and torque are all instantaneous and ever changing.

I’m basing my assertion on lots of things. A. The science from swing researchers and shaft makers B. GEARS data that is observable and reproducible and C. Players own statements throughout the history of golf. There’s a reason great players have talked about pulling down from the top, pulling with the last three fingers of their lead hand, rising a bell, releasing from the top, etc. In transition they are using their body for stabilization and the ground for friction and they are pulling the club down. Period. They are getting speed into their hands from the top of the backswing to left arm parallel. Then the arc of the clubhead gets outside of their hands and starts slowing their hands down as the speed begins to transmit into the club. And the hands continue to brake as clubhead speed accelerates. It has to transmit…there is no way to keep accelerating the hands. PGA Tour hand speed peeks around 24-27 mph and clubhead speeds are 115-120 mph. The hands cannot keep up. Look at GEARS data, I think it actually backs up a lot of what ABS talks about…you aren’t holding angles and pulling or dragging the grip through. You release the club and transmit the power from the hands to the club.

EDIT: And to be clear, I’m not saying this is something conscious or an intentional swing down of the hands. I’m saying it just happens. It has to. It’s physics.

87

Not necessarily. The club head can either reel outside the hands like you state, or, the hands can acquire the pivot even more and gain centripetal force while the club head stays inside the hands, no slowing down either, that’s when the fun starts.

1 Like
88

I can think of two illustrations where the physics of two moving objects (for our sake we can consider one the hands and the other the clubhead) launch a projectile without reducing speed nor acceleration.

  1. A trebuchet - a form of catapult where there is a solid arm and a loose suspended sling holding the projectile. The arm rotates at an accelerating rate around a pivot point and the sling releases the projectile without the arm slowing until after the projectile is launched.
  2. a water skier - the boat moves at a constant or increasing speed and the skier accelerates to a jump through centrifugal force. The skier takes the jump yet neither the boat nor rope slow prior to or during the jump.
1 Like
89

No, it can’t. From the face on view there is a hand path and a clubhead path. Once the clubhead gets outside the hand path you’re done accelerating the hands. They cannot keep up with the inertia of the clubhead as it starts to pull outward. You can clearly see, in Hogan’s downswing, that the clubhead is inside his hands, gets in line with his hands, and then moves outside his hands. Once it gets outside it over as far as the hand speed.

Hogan
Hogan2048×2048 150 KB

1 Like
90

Its not outside the hands if you know where you’re going. And its about to really pick up speed, pivot just engaged.

Try the high angle, dsl…Hogan black and white. You can see what youre looking for there.

1 Like
91

I would bet the wood beam of a trebuchet goes into lead deflection as the stone passes is and energy is transferred and I would also bet there is an acceleration a braking profile if it was measured.

I’m not sure I’m forming a picture in my head of what you’re talking about with the skier and boat. Jumping off of a ramp? A much more accurate analogy would be a boat accelerating in a straight line and then going into a sharp turn and slinging the skier. The boat is absolutely decelerating as is changes directions in the turn.

Regardless, the human body isn’t a wooden beam or a 400 horsepower engine. The hands and arms are pushing, pulling, and twisting on the club in an arc and the club is moving at 80-120 mph and weighs the equivilant of 100 pounds pulling back on the golfer. The hands and arms are composed of relatively weak muscles, joints, and ligaments and we just aren’t strong or fast enough to keep up.

And the fact is that the direction of the forces is ever changing. The hand path isn’t a straight line and neither is the clubhead. They are arcing. Once the hands reach peak speed the clubhead throws out and the hands very quickly change direction and start turning the corner.

1 Like
92

Well all of the science and data disagrees with you. I posted a swing recorded on GEARS. You can clearly see the acceleration and speed of the hands, where it peaks, and how it slows. You can see the same for the clubhead. It works like this in all swings. You’re free to believe whatever you want, but there’s no sense in beating your head against the wall of reality. Again, it doesn’t invalidate feels, intentions, or any instruction here. Accept reality and then understand how and why different intentions may make that happen. How many hall of fame Tour players have talked about “speed out front” or “the fastest point of the swing is in front of the ball”? We obviously know that isn’t true in reality, so dig deeper and find out why they feel those things.

93

db099b28295b3b5214dcdad02e597de5

Like Hogan said to Jackie, “why are you telling him anything, it’s just making more competition for the rest of us, leave him dumb and alone”.

94

To me, trying to understand the golf swing from a physics and anatomy viewpoint is interesting and can be helpful to some. But going around in circles as we seem to be doing doesn’t help. Please know that my criticisms of your analysis are not criticisms of you personally, and the intent is to move the conversation forward.

I’m simply saying that the hands are the only thing touching the club. Anything you do with your body ultimately has to make it to the hands and then to the club.

This is just a trite truism revealing nothing significant. In fact it detracts from the conversation in that it deflects from where the focus should be. It’s like saying that a drill bit is the only thing that touches the wall, so anything the drill does has to ultimately turn the drill bit. Unless the discussion is about drill bit design, the only purpose of such a statement to to deflect away from discussing what actually makes the drill bit turn: the motor.

I’m also saying that there are invisible things going on. You may see a certain motion being performed, but the forces and torques are hidden. The actual direction of a force or a torque is hidden because it’s invisible. This is one of the problems looking at still images of swings. … You may not see it on video either because the direction and amounts of force and torque are all instantaneous and ever changing.

We are in complete agreement here. Indeed, this is what @lagpressure and others have been saying.

I’m basing my assertion on lots of things. A. The science from swing researchers and shaft makers…

“The science” is doing a lot of work here. You might want to put the little trademark symbol (™) after it. I jest, but this is a main part of the problem of this discussion going around in circles. You put forth an imperfect model of the golf swing, based on a particular swing technique. Then you apply conclusions you draw from it to completely different techniques. This is not science, let alone “the” science, whatever that means. In fact, it’s more like what Richard Feynman called cargo cult science.

…B. GEARS data that is observable and reproducible…

At best, this is a straw man. It’s not the data others here are objecting to per se. Rather it’s the erroneous conclusions being drawn from data generated by observing players using completely different techniques.

…and C. Players own statements throughout the history of golf.

You’re cherry-picking. Hogan has said multiple times that he accelerates through impact, that his maximum speed is after impact, not before. And he’s not the only great player who’s made similar statements.

The video you included is analyzing a swing that pivot stalls. Lot’s of pros pivot stall, especially with the driver. Moreover, if their goal is to maximize distance and prioritize it over accuracy, then that technique may very well be superior. But that’s not the ABS technique.

Again, it’s not scientific to analyze one technique and use it to claim it’s impossible to do things using another technique. Consider the high jump. Imagine a similar discussion before Fosbury. You would be saying something to the effect of, “We’ve analyzed all the Olympic high jumpers and none of them can clear the bar with their center of mass as far below the bar as you’re claiming. Look at all the data we collected and the models we made. It’s impossible. It’s physics.” Of course it’s you who would’ve been wrong, and not for anything about physics.

The famous English mathematician, G. H. Hardy, referred to this confusion you’re making. He said that it’s silly to take too seriously the statement that it’s mathematically proven that an eclipse of the sun will happen on such and such a date. It can’t be mathematically proven since the sun and moon and laws of physics are not mathematical objects and axioms. If the eclipse didn’t happen would mathematics be in crisis? Of course not. Likewise you’re confusing collecting data and making models of golf swings with the laws of physics.

95

The video I posted just happens to be the first video I found. You can pull up GEARS data for any of the thousands of swings that have ever been recorded on the system and you will see the same pattern.

There are a handful of scientists who have dedicated the last decade + to researching the golf swing. Kwon, Sasho, Nesbit, etc. And there are scientists and engineers who have been working at equipment manufacturers for years too researching clubs and shafts and how they load and unload. They ALL agree with the conclusion that club shafts go into lead deflection by impact and systems like True Temper’s Shaft Lab, Flightscope’s shaft profiling software, and especially GEARS confirms these conclusions over and over and over and over again. There are physics going on that simply can’t be overcome by the human body.

It’s simple enough to test. There are GEARS systems all over the place. I’m sure between connections John and Brad have they can find one and John can go hit some balls for testing. The results will say what they say. Hit old equipment, hit new equipment, test full swings, test half swings, test with and without a ball…the results will be what they are and the actual GEARS data can be posted for all to check out.

96

Once again we have an anonymous poster asking us to validate what we already know in order for this poster to be convinced. I would rather see the poster undertake some simple tests of the ABS technique himself (or even go through the course) and post his/her results.

And I love how the use of the term “physics” is bandied about. All physics is describing objects interacting alone or with other objects. Because we are able to move an object then physics has occurred.

1 Like
97

Just like @Dubious did with an earlier post, you’re arguing by authority. That’s not very scientific.

The video you posted showed data from a pivot stalling swing. (Moreover, the makers of that video didn’t reveal who the pro was so we can’t analyze their technique further.) That you now dismiss this as it “just happens to be the first video I found” suggests that you either don’t understand how the ABS technique differs from hip-stalling, or worse, you don’t think it matters. Instead of telling me or others to go comb through thousand of others videos to find one of someone using an ABS-like technique, or at any rate, one who’s not hip-stalling, why don’t you do this work? After all, it’s you who’s making the bold claim that accelerating after P3 is impossible.

The scientific attitude is one of curiosity. Indeed, scientists are delighted when experiments show that their prior understanding may not be correct. Instead of asserting that accelerating late in the downswing is impossible, why not inquire how the ABS technique differs considerably with the technique of whoever that pro was in that video?

If you can find someone with a pivot-driven swing and frozen trail elbow, who’s not employing dead hands, etc., that has been analyzed by this GEARS system or an equivalent, by all means share it. Then we can move this conversation further. Until then I don’t think it’s fair to ask @lagpressure to devote time and money to go get “tested” first.

98

I’ve wanted to get on GEARS. Im equally curious about this. Ive seen it, heard it, and compared it/played it in competition. Im convinced…but im still just as curious.

They say feel isnt real…:man_shrugging:

99

Define “pivot stall”. What is it, how do you identify it, and by what metric or system are you using to measure it? Any specific body segment? You know, GEARS can measure all body segments and the rates they are doing whatever they’re doing, down to the fraction of a degree, in real time. It can even measure if someone’s trail elbow is “frozen” or exactly how much and how quickly that angle is opening up.

Look, I’ve been studying the golf swing since I was 13 years old. I’ve been exposed to nearly every idea, instructor, or instruction book or philosophy out there. I’ve been to numerous seminars and instructor trainings, I’ve taught golf, and I’ve played competitively. And I’ve come very close to reaching Tour level ballstriking skills and I’m happy to post up before/afters of students and my own Trackman combine results. I’m here to learn and to see if I can pick up anything that allows me to hit the ball better. But I’ve also studied the swing empirically and I know what happens on a biomechanics level in a golf swing.

I also know that no matter what I post its going to be excuses about how it doesn’t meet whatever standard you want it to meet and the goal post is going to be raised. By all means, tell me what a pivot stall is, tell me which Tour player’s swing you think holds shaft flex into impact, and I’ll do my best to try to find the GEARS data of their right arm angle, their hand speed, their clubhead speed, and their shaft deflection. I can’t make any guarantees, but I’ll try.

I would love it if it was possible to hold shaft flex into the ball on a real, full golf swing granting that it actually did something. I would love there to be something new and a real, tangible, measurable parameter of ball striking to strive to achieve. I do not think its possible and I do not think it has ever happened or that it can ever happen.

I’m not asking anyone to go get tested. I’m simply saying that it could easily be done. I’m not the one making the claim that shaft flex can be held in a golf swing. If John is the only one in the world that can do it then how would I possibly confirm that with GEARS data if I don’t have his GEARS data? Like I said, with all of the connections and Brad’s Tour connections I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to set up a GEARS session. Probably for free. Doesn’t John live in California? Tons of equipment manufacturer HQs are there and I guarantee they all have GEARS.

1 Like
100

U could very well be arguing with @dubious or @JeffMann they are all the same IDs

Now we have @Fore_Thirty who is his 3rd alias.

The need for attention goes bonkers

101

I can assure you I am my own, real, independent person and I am not an alias of dubious or Jeff Mann.

102

Here is Rory McIlroy’s GEARS data, specifically his grips speed at various points in his swing. But I’m sure he’s not good enough and doesn’t use an appropriate technique. You can clearly see that his grip speed peaks at roughly 24.74 mph in slide 5 (actual peak is 24.90) and that by impact its at 20.67 with the shaft in lead deflection. I’m not going back through and making another one, so you’ll just have to take my word for it, but his clubhead speed is 69.88 when his grip speed is 24.90 and by impact his clubhead speed is 121.61 when his grip speed it 20.67.

Rory
Rory2048×2048 196 KB

103

Rory at max grip speed and Rory at impact. Grip speed and clubhead speed.

Rory 2
Rory 21280×1280 108 KB

1 Like