Your a walking contradiction.
U posted this below 
***You say you have no agenda out of one side of ur mouth then admit you keep questioning JE ABS teachings here on this website. ***
I quit reading all ur posts until you responded to an old post of my opinion.
Your constant debating JE principles here on this website. imo u would be better served somewhere else. You really do a disservice to people who are trying to learn this system.
Imo
I’ve no agenda or axe to grind with JE. I try to post as much evidence to support my posts and you can either agree or disagree in hopefully a civil manner (which most posters here seem to do). Indeed, some posters have found some of the information about research and graphs quite useful.
I can see two statements you make here that are disputable:
Your statement #3 being that the clubface is squared with just torso rotation. This is not what is taught by John Erickson as forearm rotation also plays an important part in squaring the club.
Your support for engineers who design modern golf clubs - this is exactly what JE argues as well. The engineers are not great golfers and therefore do not understand the physics of hitting and do not design clubs for that type of golf. John has always been of the opinion that modern club design is a big reason for shotmaking not being up to the standards of the greats of the past.
@Dubious Your agenda to disprove ABS as a superior technique vs a swingers release has been the vein of almost all ur posts.
Thats why I dont read any of ur posts bc its back office narcissist debating when most people here hit the range and try to employ the hitters release that have long been swingers.
Like I said your agenda to disprove ABS hitting is not applicable when you dont go and work at the technique and seem determined to undermine the work many have already done and are doing to help others here.
Why not go sell ur ideas on golfwrx or something.
Point 1: Please see the question and reply I received from John.
Question I raised to John Erickson
“Can you advise whether you are just connecting your upper arms to your chest area as you use torso pivot to create clubhead speed (and also square the clubface) from your P3 position (while also uncocking your left wrist)? Are you saying that your upper arms/forearms are connected to your torso and the whole unit (ie. torso/arms) are being torso rotated together through impact without significant rotation of your left humerus/forearm in the shoulder socket?”
Answer:
"Essentially… yes… but to the best of our own abilities.
I’ll throw right arm at it if I have to to get the ball around if my body isn’t working as well as I would like…
But when I am really on my game… it’s very much torso rotation and very little right arm throw and very little forearm rotation.
But as I described in the video… the uncocking of the wrists feels like forearm rotation because it is happening on an inclined plane and the forearm rotation and uncocking happen in unison…
I would NEVER teach a student to focus upon uncocking their wrist as any kind of independent motion. I can just imagine how horrible they would throw from the top if that were even in the sentence."
Point 2
Where have I stated anything about my support for engineers who design modern golf clubs? I was surprised that one of the posters was ridiculing science professors, the same ones that probably designed the golf clubs he was using (while implying that they are basically ignorant about the golf swing).
How can you make such a wild assumption that engineers are not great golfers because they don’t understand the physics of hitting? No-one on this forum has defined the physics of ‘Hitting’ that makes any logical sense.
I have no real interest in John’s opinions about modern golf club design.
Anyhow, if you really wish to understand more about the evidence concerning shaft flex in the golf swing, please visit this link.
Which of these golfers would be classified as a hitter?
Tommy Armour III
Russ Cochran
John Cook
Bob Estes
Peter Jacobsen
Davis Love III
Greg Norman
Arnold Palmer
Corey Pavin
Why is the clubhead losing speed with an increase in mass?
What is that based upon?
Nonsense?
I can swing a light club the same speed has a heavy one if I so choose.
Are you considering that one might get stronger over time if they are swinging a heavier club? The body might adapt and get stronger? Is that NOT scientific?
Holding shaft flex is the same thing as not holding shaft flex?
When I see Tutleman swing a golf club…
we can continue this conversation… until then, it’s just more subjective
scientific rhetoric that seems trapped in a swinger’s belief system.
Dubious,
You’re making an argument by authority while masquerading as being scientific. Why do you have so much faith in this Tutelman guy? I mean you audaciously proclaim that to understand the role of shaft flex, or rather “the evidence concerning shaft flex” you ought to read him. He’s not even a physicist. He’s a retired software engineer and manager. His study of the golf swing and equipment is a hobby. His papers are not academic, they’re not peer-reviewed, and they reek of biased assumptions, unsupported claims, and back-of-the-envelop calculations with numbers we’re just supposed to trust are valid.
I’m not trying to knock his work. I’m sure he enjoys it, and it can very well add to the discussion. I’m only saying that it’s silly to cite it as some definitive thesis that one should read if they “really wish to understand.” It’s severely wanting of anything anywhere close to rigor, and has more in common with what Richard Feynman called cargo cult science than actual science (see http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.pdf).
To give a concrete example, in his concluding remarks he states:
Any strength you want to exert on the clubhead needs to be done during the downswing; there is nothing you can do to help during impact.
This seeming obvious statement is quickly seen to be utter nonsense after a moments reflection. Sure, if there was a circular saw hovering just above the ground and in front of the ball, which cut the shaft off at the hosel just after contact, nothing would change the ball flight (provided the presence of the saw doesn’t affect the golfer). But that’s not what he’s saying. He’s saying that the only thing the golfer can do to affect the ball flight is done before impact, and that whatever you do during and after impact has no effect. But this clearly isn’t true.
That a runner is allowed to run past first base definitely affects his time to reach the base. It would be absurd to state that only what he does before reaching the base can affect how long it takes him to get there. Likewise you can’t analyze the efficacy of a golf swing by only considering what happens before impact. You have to consider the entire motion, all the way to the follow through, or at any rate significantly past impact.
That’s just one, albeit gross, example of unfounded bias in this paper. Again, I’m not saying it worthless, far from it. But to cite it as authority is plainly silly, and not very scientific.
William
from the web today…
Just a quick follow-up. I had a massive epiphany today. I was studying your SS sequence intently. I realized how connected the arms and the rotation is around your torso. The old Hogan films show it differently. The thought that the arms are seemingly passive throughout much of the swing never occurred to me, that is, just prior to impact. This is pure excitement, I practice with a heavy driver in my workout room (walk before running) and wow amazing results are starting to happen on the Golf course. The transition to ABS is coming along nicely for me. I have been working my butt off.
With two artificial knees I had to strengthen my Gluteus Maximus, gluteal region and Calf muscles. Not only has this given me a stronger base but I have better balance with speed throughout the swing. I read a reply on snapping the left knee, if it’s ok I’ll respond as mentioned? The next point is your ABS methodology in my opinion is ground breaking science and kinesiology for Golf. I wouldn’t have believed the Golf swing to be void of timing, go hitters. I will be joining your modules soon. John, I am so grateful that a friend of mine introduced me to your methods, truly a blessing. Thank you for allowing me into your forum.
I suspect you didn’t read the article whose link I previously posted. The new research was done by other scientists with high tech equipment and Dave Tutelman was doing his best to make it as understandable as possible for non-scientist readers.
“His study of the golf swing and equipment is a hobby. His papers are not academic, they’re not peer-reviewed, and they reek of biased assumptions, unsupported claims, and back-of-the-envelop calculations with numbers we’re just supposed to trust are valid.”
Here is his ‘Golf Technology Biography’
Sports Technology Bio (tutelman.com)
I can say the same for ABS and the very vague claims made about accelerating the club through impact while retaining shaft flex. Further, the claims that there is less dispersion of the golf ball for off-centre strikes for ABS Hitting vs Swinging. There has been no scientific proof to support these claims and I’ve yet to see some hard evidence apart from opinions and old 2D pictures of golfers who are assumed to be ‘Hitters’.
You haven’t read Dave Tutelman’s article ‘Accelerating Through Impact’ (link below) and it might surprise you as he actually wants the golfer to body pivot through impact.
Accelerating Through Impact: Mandate or Myth (tutelman.com)
Not because accelerating the clubhead though impact will have any significant effect on driving distance or decrease dispersion for off-centre strikes but because it puts the golfer’s arms and hands in the correct position to allow the club to release fully just post impact where clubhead speed would peak ideally just after impact (if there wasn’t a ball in the way). For irons especially, this means trying to time the peaking of clubhead speed ideally post impact for a descending blow. For a driver swing, the golfer would have to time the body pivot and club release so that the arms/hands were positioned to meet the intended angle of attack for a more sweeping strike.
DT says
"So there are good things that happen if you retain a bit of wrist cock at impact, especially with irons. One of the things that happens is that the clubhead is accelerating at impact – but that is just a side effect and doesn’t really help you.
A real live human being cannot accelerate the body to impact and not still be accelerating through impact. A golfer thinking only of accelerating to impact is going to quit accelerating before getting near impact. You can’t turn off full-body acceleration in .4 milliseconds, probably not even in 100 milliseconds.
Here, then, is the situation. If you want to maintain the body’s angular acceleration up to impact, you must intend to accelerate through impact. If there is any reason to want angular acceleration to continue fully to impact (and we will see below that there are good reasons), then a good instructor will teach the golfer the intent of accelerating through impact.
In fact, a good instructor will have the golfer exaggerate… Accelerate well beyond impact. If you have taken a lesson where your swing was video’d, and watched the video afterwards, you know this is true. You may intend to make a particular exaggerated move, you may have felt that you made the move successfully, but it is barely there (if at all) on the video. Much of good golf instruction is getting people to greatly exaggerate a correct move, because it is the only way to get the motion to happen at all. So, assuming we want angular body acceleration to continue up to impact, the swing key to be taught is to accelerate well beyond impact."
Another reason for accelerating the torso through impact is that is prevents the golfer hitting ‘at’ the ball and quitting on the strike (see the 2 images below). As you can see, peaking clubhead speed before impact will cause a flipping action with probably a bent lead wrist.
BOTTOM LINE
“Accelerate though the ball” is an excellent swing key, for every shot from a drive to a putt.
But it is better expressed as “rotate your body through the ball” (or perhaps “accelerate moving your hands beyond the ball”), because it is body rotation or “turning the triangle” where acceleration through the ball is beneficial. Consciously accelerating the clubhead through the ball (especially if you do it with the hands, wrists, or forearms) will probably do more harm than good.
Dave Tutelmans old swing is on you-tube (where he was an obvious flipper). Not sure what it looks like today but he can still shoot below his age 81.
I haven’t read through all of this discussion, but @Dubious - how do you understand this quote from your link? What does he mean by ‘anything’?
From the start to the end of impact, there is no way your hands can transmit anything to the clubhead.
Not sure what your point is.
I’m also assuming you can swing a lighter club quicker than a heavier one too. So what?
Of course, you can practice swinging with heavier clubs (look at the ‘Stack System’ training aids by Dr Sasho Mackenzie) which isn’t exactly my ‘cup of tea’ but people seem to have improved their swing speeds.
As I’ve stated before, you don’t see shaft flex being created by long drivers and they are a lot stronger/quicker than you are. You can quite easily resolve this argument by getting your swing videoed (with your heavier driver) with a Phantom Camera or 3D analysed using GEARS or maybe ENSO.
I think GEARS is a great idea Dubious. I’d love to do that if someone has a setup that I can visit. I believe I have mastery over the ABS fundamentals.
It’s only going to prove Lag is right though. Trust me…I’ve been down the path.
Here is my proof…I get 1.52-1.54 smash factor with a modern driver. When I hit my SIM2 with 15g of lead tape on it, I can get 1.55 on a perfect “hot spot” strike. Indoors too…
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE gets those numbers with a swinging protocol. Sergio had the only trackman numbers I could find showing someone else besides me doing it. Best I saw was 1.52. He used to have tons of lead tape on his stuff too.
On the “speed” note…yes, flash speed is all well and good, but…What if you can get the same speed and your mishits have better efficiency than a swingers best strike?
That’s why, I only swing heavy clubs when I drill (with this protocol). I tried super speed training, but I had to change to a swingers protocol and got tired of having to live with one or two “mega-misses” a round. It sucks to be -3 and hit one OB…totally heartbreaking stuff. All in the name of speed…this is why only younger guys are winning on tour. Requires too much maintenance and timing for older guys without proper therapeutic resources.
Since my “heavy club” drill work, I’ve picked up 6mph (105mph to 111mph+) from my first days of ABS mastery and now. I’m 40 and I’m still picking up speed…I am sure I can hit 120 mph with some effort, but I don’t think it’s necessary.
Anyway, it’s all trade offs…what’s the return if you have to eat at least 2 strokes a round???
These arguments end up in circles because even if you show them to be true, it’s invalidated because it wasn’t measured with modern scientific equipment. That being said, we could assume that everything Newton, Einstein, Galileo, Pythagoras all should be invalidated because they didn’t have access to the latest and greatest advances in technology.
The golf swing is not really that complicated.
A weight on the end of a stick is swung around the body in an attempt to displace something.
On one end, that weight can be gradually moved to a point of acceptable velocity, then coasted into the colliding object.
On the other end, that same weight can be quickly accelerated aggressively across a shorter distance reaching the same impact velocity projecting the displaced object the same distance.
Now… which method is more likely to be easily repeated by the human body?
I would suggest the later… why?
Allows the human to more fully engage the muscles in the body in a tangible, contracted way that embraces the natural tense hit instinct that is intrinsic to our DNA.
Puts more pressure into the hands at the point of impact so the human can feel what is happening time and time again.
When done correctly, can take a huge timing element out of the swing.
Can significantly decrease any torquing or rotation of the weight on the stick through the impact area.
Has the ability to store kinetic energy in the stick itself coming into the impact area.
Remember loading up or bending back your pencil in school and shooting things around the room at other students during physics class? It was the best way to do it for both speed and accuracy.
I have no objections to ABS as a technique and it might help your smash factor by swinging slower with a heavier club and possibly minimise off-centre strikes.
By the way, here is a very good explanation of smash factor and its limitations from a purely physics perspective versus reality.
Smash Factor - Myths and Facts (tutelman.com)
What I am questioning are the claims below
@dubious whens the last time u went to the range and hit balls the way JE teaches trying to hold shaft flex.
Your questions reg claims of ABS are in the clouds when theres is no application of you swinging in the real world. (Download your swing) 
BTW….A real business man actually runs his business creating profits or losses period.
Hes not much of a business man unless he puts his supposed head knowledge to the test. A wannabe business man can sit around in the back office on the computer and draw up all the business plans he wants but its pretty useless if he never tests his own plans success.
Or hes just another wannabe businessman imo.
Go hit some balls already. Take some film of that session and get back to us. Maybe show us all this brilliant swinger technique u advocate?
Other than that its all whimsical hot air 
To keep it simple, there is less dispersion because the clubface is far more stable. Additionally, the strike is more consistent because we use the laws of physics to leverage the golf club–no timing, just learn how to dynamically aim (rabbit hole warning).
Lag stated it beautifully above–given a big enough data set.
So, off center strikes (which are actually rare in ABS) tend to end up with makeable birdie putts vs. chipping or bunker play. A more stable mass, deflecting an object, equates to high energy transfer. Again, measured by smash factor.
So, using my swing as an example because I play modern gear and I have completed both Lag and Brad’s programs–my swing speed is often slower than PGA tour pros, but I manage to carry the ball further with more spin and the same club…slightly lower trajectory (flatter ball flight). This is MOSTLY due to smash factor…or transfer of energy. And yes, I understand there are more things to consider.
Again, you can post a myth page…but I’ve played side by side with guys that have Korn Ferry and PGA tour status. I recently played a monday qualifier with a guy that made the cut in the US Open. I am sometimes 20 years older than guys I play with, but we hit identical irons into greens. Unfortunately, they just hit the driver a lot further on courses with no trees and barely any rough.
I can tell you, none of their misses were pin high on the green…and I was usually playing at least 2 clubs behind them.
Just so you have a clear picture…fairway to green, this technique is superior. Unfortunately, modern drivers and fairway woods make this technique a bit difficult (if not impossible from a physics perspective)…and forget about adding speed. ABS is designed for hitting it into dumpsters from 250 and in, with persimmons and blades.
My humble $.02
Very good baseball analogy, especially as I’m watching a LLWS game as I type. I try not missing any Little League games, some of those players at 12 years of age are way beyond their years. Watch out for Hawaii, they are not going up to the plate looking for a walk.
There is also some acquired non-linear speed in their game but more from technique than raw linear speed. When rounding each base if a runner touches the inside of the bag using their inside leg, which would be the left leg, they save 3 total steps when rounding the bases during an inside the park home run, and whatever time saving that would amount to.
That is incorrect as I’ve never advocated any swinging technique on this forum. But if you really wanted to study different golf techniques, there is some wonderful information on Dr Jeff Mann’s website. It also has lots of information about swinging, hitting, right arm swinging, swing-hitting and lots more detailed information (1000’s of pages).
Perfect Golf Swing (perfectgolfswingreview.net)
Rather than wasting your time making repeated condescending comments you might find it more fruitful to expand your knowledge of biomechanics.
