Science Validates Erickson

Just like @Dubious did with an earlier post, you’re arguing by authority. That’s not very scientific.

The video you posted showed data from a pivot stalling swing. (Moreover, the makers of that video didn’t reveal who the pro was so we can’t analyze their technique further.) That you now dismiss this as it “just happens to be the first video I found” suggests that you either don’t understand how the ABS technique differs from hip-stalling, or worse, you don’t think it matters. Instead of telling me or others to go comb through thousand of others videos to find one of someone using an ABS-like technique, or at any rate, one who’s not hip-stalling, why don’t you do this work? After all, it’s you who’s making the bold claim that accelerating after P3 is impossible.

The scientific attitude is one of curiosity. Indeed, scientists are delighted when experiments show that their prior understanding may not be correct. Instead of asserting that accelerating late in the downswing is impossible, why not inquire how the ABS technique differs considerably with the technique of whoever that pro was in that video?

If you can find someone with a pivot-driven swing and frozen trail elbow, who’s not employing dead hands, etc., that has been analyzed by this GEARS system or an equivalent, by all means share it. Then we can move this conversation further. Until then I don’t think it’s fair to ask @lagpressure to devote time and money to go get “tested” first.

I’ve wanted to get on GEARS. Im equally curious about this. Ive seen it, heard it, and compared it/played it in competition. Im convinced…but im still just as curious.

They say feel isnt real…:man_shrugging:

Define “pivot stall”. What is it, how do you identify it, and by what metric or system are you using to measure it? Any specific body segment? You know, GEARS can measure all body segments and the rates they are doing whatever they’re doing, down to the fraction of a degree, in real time. It can even measure if someone’s trail elbow is “frozen” or exactly how much and how quickly that angle is opening up.

Look, I’ve been studying the golf swing since I was 13 years old. I’ve been exposed to nearly every idea, instructor, or instruction book or philosophy out there. I’ve been to numerous seminars and instructor trainings, I’ve taught golf, and I’ve played competitively. And I’ve come very close to reaching Tour level ballstriking skills and I’m happy to post up before/afters of students and my own Trackman combine results. I’m here to learn and to see if I can pick up anything that allows me to hit the ball better. But I’ve also studied the swing empirically and I know what happens on a biomechanics level in a golf swing.

I also know that no matter what I post its going to be excuses about how it doesn’t meet whatever standard you want it to meet and the goal post is going to be raised. By all means, tell me what a pivot stall is, tell me which Tour player’s swing you think holds shaft flex into impact, and I’ll do my best to try to find the GEARS data of their right arm angle, their hand speed, their clubhead speed, and their shaft deflection. I can’t make any guarantees, but I’ll try.

I would love it if it was possible to hold shaft flex into the ball on a real, full golf swing granting that it actually did something. I would love there to be something new and a real, tangible, measurable parameter of ball striking to strive to achieve. I do not think its possible and I do not think it has ever happened or that it can ever happen.

I’m not asking anyone to go get tested. I’m simply saying that it could easily be done. I’m not the one making the claim that shaft flex can be held in a golf swing. If John is the only one in the world that can do it then how would I possibly confirm that with GEARS data if I don’t have his GEARS data? Like I said, with all of the connections and Brad’s Tour connections I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to set up a GEARS session. Probably for free. Doesn’t John live in California? Tons of equipment manufacturer HQs are there and I guarantee they all have GEARS.

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U could very well be arguing with @dubious or @JeffMann they are all the same IDs

Now we have @Fore_Thirty who is his 3rd alias.

The need for attention goes bonkers

I can assure you I am my own, real, independent person and I am not an alias of dubious or Jeff Mann.

Here is Rory McIlroy’s GEARS data, specifically his grips speed at various points in his swing. But I’m sure he’s not good enough and doesn’t use an appropriate technique. You can clearly see that his grip speed peaks at roughly 24.74 mph in slide 5 (actual peak is 24.90) and that by impact its at 20.67 with the shaft in lead deflection. I’m not going back through and making another one, so you’ll just have to take my word for it, but his clubhead speed is 69.88 when his grip speed is 24.90 and by impact his clubhead speed is 121.61 when his grip speed it 20.67.

Rory at max grip speed and Rory at impact. Grip speed and clubhead speed.

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Fore_Thirty,

You wrote-: “I can assure you I am my own, real, independent person and I am not an alias of dubious or Jeff Mann.

I agree. You are also very smart and knowledgeable and I invite you to join the NGI golf forum at https://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/ so that you can contribute and help us better understand the golf swing biomechanics/mechanics of skilled pro golfers.

Jeff,

I don’t doubt at all your sincerity, dedication, and skill. I appreciate hearing about your golfing biography and quest in understanding the swing. My criticisms are restricted to what is being thrown around as science. Perhaps a bit of my biography will help us understand each other.

My undergrad was at Cornell University '91, majoring in electrical engineering. Realizing late that my preference was pure mathematics, I took as many math classes as I could, including real and complex analysis, harmonic analysis, Lebesgue measure and integration, probability theory, set theory and logic, etc. My late uncle was a full professor, specializing in analytic number theory. I learned more advanced mathematics through long conversations with him throughout my twenties. Along with my mathematics and engineering background, I’ve taken and studied enough physics to hold my own. I bring this up only so you can see where I’m coming from.

As I’m sure you know on an intimate level, any human motion is complicated, and the golf swing is no exception. No simple physical model with pendulums and gears and pulleys and springs will capture fully what’s happening. Moreover, certain exceptional people have performed physically amazing feats throughout history. No sane person would say that in doing so they defy the laws of physics, even if it may seem as though they do. It may seem impossible to you that someone skilled in a certain technique can accelerate a club all the way to impact, but you wouldn’t deny a robot can be built to do so. Would you? You wouldn’t deny that by starting slowly from P3, acceleration can be maintained to impact. Would you? You still may not believe it’s possible for a human making a full swing with sufficient club head speed at impact to play serious golf can do so, but it’s not at all like claiming one can fly by flapping one’s arms. It’s certainly not clearly impossible. Citing the basic laws of physics won’t help either. As we noted, these are complicated movements. And robots can certainly perform this feat.

Since there’s no law of physics that’s being defied by the claim that accelerating to impact is possible, we must turn away from theoretical arguments and look for other means. Indeed, you have looked to data. That brings us to my next criticism.

Broadly speaking, scientists use data in two ways. One is to test a theoretical result. Calculations are made from a theory, and they are compared against data collected by measurement. But there’s no theory being tested in that video, so let’s move on to the other use of data. Scientists also use data from observations to play with. That is, to gain insights to better understand and possibly, after much effort, make a theory that can then be tested. That is the stage we’re in. And that’s where my objections lie.

You can’t draw conclusions from the same data you used to make your hypothesis. You’re looking at data from certain swings, and then using that same data to make bold assertions. “We tested all these pros who don’t accelerate to impact, therefore it’s not possible to do so.”

This is not science. It’s marketing. (The pharmaceutical industry suffers from the same diseased mentality!) It may still be useful, and it may be profitable, but it’s not science. There’s another danger inherent in using data in this way. While we should strive to measure whatever we can, there’s a pernicious tendency to overweigh the importance of what we can easily measure and undervalue what we can’t or at present haven’t.

I also know that no matter what I post its going to be excuses about how it doesn’t meet whatever standard you want it to meet and the goal post is going to be raised.

You’re making the claim that it’s science, it’s physics. It’s not. Can it lead to good science? Sure. Is it worthwhile making these observations and looking at the data? Yes. But that’s not what you’re doing. You’re claiming that it establishes scientific facts about accelerating to impact. It doesn’t. Pointing this out is not an excuse or a shifting of goalposts.

If you haven’t already done so, I recommend reading Richard Feynman’s essay/commencement address about what he called cargo cult science. It’s very well known, and quite funny. http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.pdf

As for pivot stalling, it means just what it implies, the rotation of the core, of the hips/torso/shoulders, is slowing down or stopping near impact. You don’t even need fancy equipment to see this. Just look at video from a down-the-line view. Step through the video frame by frame. Is the pivot of the core moving (rotating) significantly in each frame from P3 to P4? If so then there’s no pivot stall. If the pivot slows down dramatically or stops, there’s a pivot stall. Even though that video you posted was from a caddy view, you can see that the core slowed down to let the arms catch up. Indeed, that’s what you describe as “evidence” of it being impossible to accelerate to impact. Hogan clearly didn’t pivot stall. ABS teaches a very gradual speed increase from the top to P3 (which is not, as you stated, what that pro is doing) and then pouring it on after P3 using mainly a vicious torso rotation. It’s a very different technique. That’s why the observation and data from that video you posted have nothing to say on whether it’s possible for an ABS type technique to accelerate all the way to impact.

At the risk of making this already too long post even longer, I want to end it on a constructive note. What would be an interesting and useful application of the GEARS data is to see, among other things, how far into the downswing players maintain acceleration. How do different techniques effect this? Is there even a correlation? That is, we can use the proverbial lamppost for its intended purpose, illumination, rather than how the drunkard uses it, for support (of prior biases).

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Hanisch,

You asked-: “It may seem impossible to you that someone skilled in a certain technique can accelerate a club all the way to impact, but you wouldn’t deny a robot can be built to do so. Would you? You wouldn’t deny that by starting slowly from P3, acceleration can be maintained to impact. Would you?

I think that it is impossible for a golf robot machine or a human golfer to accelerate the clubhead all the way to impact using the “holding shaft flex” technique where the peripheral clubshaft remains bent back all the way to impact - if the degree of clubhead lag was greater than 90 degrees at the start of the downswing and if the lead arm is positioned at the 10:30 o’clock position at the end-backswing time point.

When you look at John performing his “holding shaft flex” technique in his latest video, he starts off with his lead arm at the 7 o’clock position and with virtually no clubhead lag, and then he simply applies enough accelerating force with his hands to accelerate the club into-and-through impact. Under those conditions, the peripheral clubshaft will be bend backwards (implying the presence of lag tension) all the way to impact and beyond.

However, look at what happens in his “real life” golf swing action when he starts with his lead arm at the 10:30 o’clock position and when he has >90 degrees of clubhead lag.

At the P5.5 position (image 2), note that he still has ~90 degrees of clubhead lag and lag tension exists (note that the peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards). Note how much clubhead lag is lost between P5.5 (image 2) and P6.5 (image 3) due to a lead wrist uncocking action that is associated with a partial trail arm straightening action, and note that the peripheral clubshaft is bent forwards at P6.5 due to the speed of the club release phenomenon. John cannot prevent that club release phenomenon which works according to the laws of physics. You are not taking that “fact” into account.

Jeff.

:face_vomiting: next. Same old same old. Nauseating @JeffMann

Ayersjj wrote-: “Same old same old. Nauseating.

I agree that it is a nauseating “same old same old” fact that many ABS groupies will never mentally engage with opinions that disprove their ideology.

Jeff.

The fact that launch monitors such as GC Quad, Trackman, Eye XO, and other high end devices do not account for the mass of the club head is not a limitation. The mass of the club head is irrelevant to what they measure and report.

These machines don’t calculate club head speed from ball speed. They measure club head speed and ball speed. They measure them directly and independently. There are many studies using these devices in many sports and in non-sports applications which have proved the reliability and validity of their measurements.

Whether the mass of the club is heavy or light, the speed of the ball is the speed of the ball, and the speed of the club is the speed of the club, and both are measured.

I’m not disputing that club head mass or other features of clubs such as lie angle aren’t important in teaching or learning golf. I’m not a golf expert. And I have heard many teachers speak out against teaching someone entirely off launch monitor numbers. But that is a separate issue from what launch monitors actually do.

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I don’t understand this to be true… certainly not with “Trackman” which is or was the most popular machine for a long time now. It does not measure clubhead speed independently. It’s only measures ball speed and then makes assumptions about clubhead speed. From everyone I have talked to about this that should know… this is how it apparently works. I can’t speak for the other machines.

It would be great for Mr. Erickson or Mr. Hughes or someone else who teaches ABS technique to get on GEARS and see what is actually happening in their swings. GEARS measures the body and the club simultaneously, as I’m sure most people know by now. We don’t need to debate or argue what’s possible or what isn’t, when we can just look and measure what’s actually happening.

I am pretty sure someone offered to donate GEARS time to study the ABS swing.

What is the main argument going on here? Is it whether hitting (pivot acceleration and shaft flex maintained) or swinging (shaft deflected forward at impact) is better? Is it whether hitting (as described above) is possible or not?

I don’t think posting GEARS data is an argument from authority. It’s just presenting data.

I’m not making any judgement about what the best swing is, nor am I in any way disputing what anyone says about the soundness of the ABS hitting swing. But GEARS data show, both in most individual swings and in the tour average swing, that everything in the body has negative acceleration through the impact zone; only the club head has a positive acceleration. The hands, arms, ribcage, and pelvis all have positive acceleration EARLY in the downswing. It then changes to a negative acceleration, at some point around when the lead arm is parallel to the ground. The sequence is clearly that the body parts accelerate in the first part of the downswing, then begin to slow down, while the club head continues to speed up through into impact.

I’m not claiming that there aren’t some players baked into that average that do it differently, but if they do, we should be able to see it. I haven’t looked at all the players. I paid for a GEARS license so I could look at the data, and thus far I haven’t found a tour player who has the shaft bent back at impact on a driver swing. Not saying there isn’t one.

Can we agree that what is measured in GEARS is better quality data than what is inferred from looking at still photos or video sequences? Or maybe I’m missing something.

@JeffMann @Dubious

So now we have yet another anonymous poster @86General of whom we know nothing of his credentials nor playing experience yet comes on to laud the benefits of GEARS.

@86General @Dubious @Fore_Thirty please when you post include your professional accomplishments both in the areas of physics and biomechanics and in your golfing careers. Also, when you present an opinion please include any peer-reviewed studies conducted to back up your opinion. Without this then I can only take what you say as what it is - an opinion.

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The list is growing. @Dubious @JeffMann high handicappers not so happy swingers projecting misery as online trolls. They have another website nobody here cares about. I guess they are talking to themselves over there and feeling lonely.

@JeffMann has been puking :face_vomiting: up bullshiat here for 13 years!