Stated in BPGS website…
Mr. Waldron’s primary golf physical skills mentors and influences include Ben Hogan, Bill Melhorn, Mac O’Grady, John Schlee, Homer Kelly, Joe Dante, George Knudson and Percy Boomer…
Now became bad influence?
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KOC - your comment is exactly what my post was describing. So I cant have been influenced years ago by a book and it’s author and now find it flawed? Is that not what the whole learning process is about? And what Lag is describing as well in his own journey from TGM disciple to his own unique understanding? And as I have posted many times here, there are many parts of the book that I am in agreement with. My recent criticism is for the basic underlying premise behind the book, which the Gummer bio made even more clear to me. It helped me to understand how much the book was colored by HK’s personality and his Asberger’s - my opinion, not the authors. And how much he seemed to model PT Barnum in his aggressive salesmanship for the book. He was a true TGM fundamentalist and that kind of certainty is very attractive to certain personality types who crave clarity and control. He was also a Christian Scientist as was Ben Doyle, and you could reasonably argue that Christian Science is a cult as well. There is a well known TGM teacher who used to run a golf school -which I attended once as a student - whose entire professional staff were Scientologists and made it very clear to me and other students that no independent thought or questioning of either TGM, the teachers model which is based on TGM, or Scientology would be tolerated.
TGM has become an even bigger religous cult than it was before the Web exploded, as Daryl noted. So I guess what I am asking the readers here to do is to see TGM in the bigger picture and to not get wrapped up too much in the individual “trees” but to see the whole “forest” for what it is. It casts a new light on the credibility and veracity of a lot of what TGM claims to be all about.
I also am starting to see how much a lot of the basic stuff in TGM is really just recycled info from other traditional sources. Is there any thing truly revolutonary in TGM? If not - why is the book garnering such lofty praise? Steady head, balance, plane, educated hands, feeling the clubhead weight in your fingers, lag - these have all been written about and talked about for over 500 years in traditional golf instruction. So I ask again - why the religous zealotry over TGM? I think the answer is because HK claimed both in the book and in subsequent interviews, that he had the “Total Package”. And that attracts Flogger Control Freaks to no end. It is also an outrageous claim on the face of it. And a claim that is so far from being true as to be a complete joke. He missed a ton of very important pieces of the puzzle, including a 3d understanding and the Arm Swing Illusion, as well as the Pivot being what drives the swing including how power is applied into the ball.
Wow - just think, I would have banned about ten times on iseek just from this post alone! I love the fresh air of a true open forum!
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Daryl, I’m more than open to discussing TGM with you… you sound like a very smart, well armed student from a somewhat fundamentalist view of TGM.
I mean this with all respect.
You are a fairly high ranked or have some of the TGM certification or qualification I presume? If not that’s fine.
One more thing, just for informative perspective… what kind of player are you? Pro? Low, mid handicap? I have no idea, I just want to understand who I am talking to… doesn’t matter as far as mechanical understanding of certain points, but it would be helpful to know what level you play the game… I understand the argument that you can understand the geometry and physics stuff without being able to execute it with machine like precision.
My mind is open to learn from you regardless, as I am sure you are as well, might be why you are here… if not from me, from many of the other knowledgeable posters here, Twomasters, BSP1, Gerry, Bio, or some of the other tour pros that hang here.
Let’s look at chapter #2. It kicks off with The Three essentials, followed by The Three imperatives.
Point #1 I make.
Homer puts the essentials ahead of the imperatives. He presents them first, labeling the Essentials A then the imperatives B
As a reader of the book, it would appear that the essentials have a greater determining factor, even if ever so slightly than the imperatives.
If not for the simple reason they are presented first and represented with A instead of B.
Let’s look at A Stationary Head.
My first question is… why is this an essential? Every Great ball striker’s head moves a considerable amount in the golf swing. Certainly from the top,
the head moves down because there is a change in direction that is best initiated with the lower body. The knees bend, and this lowers the head.
Now TGM might argue that this is not good because a change in knee bend will shorten the swing radius, therefore causing any number of issues or problems.
Moe is anything but stationary with his head. Now if TGM feels this is imperative, fine.
History tells us a different story. Not only with pictures, videos, major championship victories, but also with by own two eyes… not just with Moe whom it seems we both hold in high reverence, but also my own golf swing.
I am so convinced that not only should the head move down… it is essential that it MOVES… and not stay stationary. George Knudson who I hope needs no introduction, was a huge proponent in head movement.
There are wonderful advantages to the head dropping. For one, bending the knees at transition is a fantastic way to initiate the downswing or change in direction. Two, it creates actual pivot lag, and a cohesive chain reaction from the ground up that is biomechanically sound. It aids in a rhythmic feel for the player to connect with internally, and properly loads vertical ground forces that can be further utilized to increase pivot thrust through a proper biomechanical chain reaction that transfers energy from foot pressures to what TGM calls the #4 pressure point…
Now…
Are we really sure that Homer’s opening “STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE” is spot on here?
Really?
Daryl - I can assure you that TGM is viewed by most everyone I know in the golf industry as at a minimum “cult-like” - if not an outright cult. If you don’t see how your fellow TGM’rs view all other methods as “included” in some way in TGM as a rather narrow and extremely biased point of view, then I don’t know what else I can say. That is an Absolutist statement that just reeks with arrogance but it is also the norm for TGM. I can guraantee to you that SOME of what I teach is present in TGM and that SOME of it is not. So to answer your question - yeah, you seem religious about it to me, but less so than many others I have encountered on the web. You clearly know the TGM system better than a lot of others who have posted here.
One point I would like to make is - what if a TGM advocate could step outside of that filter and see the golf swing as something other than what TGM explains it to be? Now the typical TGM fundamentalist will employ their usual “logic” and say “Homer described the golf swing in every possible way, it is 100% objective truth and so all possible ways of explaining the golf swing are included in TGM.” Can you possibly not see the sheer insanity in that circular reasoning? Then HK is elevated to the status in essence of a god - so perfect in his research and his description in his book, that no other valid alternative view is acceptable.
Daryl, Lag and all
I know very little TGM mainly from posts like Daryl’s and have conciously decided not to read the book. For me the deciding moment agianst TGM was the unflinching AND STATED belief of the Gurus at ISG that the #4 accumulator or pivot drive is the weekest contributor to powering the golf club. I just can not ignore the sheer muscle mass involved from the leg muscles to the glutes to the abdominals and upper trunk muscles. I also believe that the large muscles of the legs and torso are the weakest link in terms of precision and if you understand and learn to move them correctly the hands (which are much more richly innervated and trained for all kind of precision movments) will find the right way. Hit me with the ping pong ball if this seems totally senseless.
Daryl tells us:
Move it as much as you want or need to. Problems may crop up when you move your head and something else substitutes for the Pivot Center.
Daryl tells us he plays off scratch, hits lots of fairways and greens, and loves putting. He also tells us he above any kind of TGM certification, hinting at some kind of disapproval of the current diploma thing that is going on in TGM circles
Let’s knock out these myths one at a time…
Homer says a stationary head is essential…
You have just said that it is not essential… are we in agreement that Homer is not correct here?
Daryl, I’m glad to hear you are a good player, because I have had discussions with TGMers’ who are 85 shooters… and although I understand they may know the book, they simply will not understand certain sensations that must be in place for proper communication to really flow…
good…
While I am trying to stay on topic, Daryl tells us we can move the head… and I agree, but Daryl fails to substantiate why Homer said you can’t, so we get his interpretation…
this is an exact quote from Daryl, NOT HOMER
Move it as much as you want or need to. Problems may crop up when you move your head and something else substitutes for the Pivot Center.
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I agree, we move the head as much as we want to… at ABS, a stationary head has no part in our program… zero. and this is consistent with the words and actions of other great ballstrikers.
What kind of problems might occur? Is it possible to move the head a lot like Moe, completely against Homer’s opening statement and still be in strict accordance with TGM philosophy?
What else might substitute for pivot center?
Are you familiar with chi center or dantien? as referred to in eastern martial arts? Is this a possible center?
With all due respect, I am not trying to be overly argumentative, but I am insisting we stay on topic here… one thing at a time…
Ok… how about Paul Smith? a self admitted 85 shooter…? and an authorized instructor? I’m not saying he doesn’t know the book … but according to you he doesn’t ?
I would not take instruction from someone who can’t beat me at least once in a while…
Loren who posts around is very TGM booksmart… but not an accomplished player…
just clarifying here… really, not trying to be difficult…
with all due respect.
Paul has said that a pit mechanic does not need to know how to drive the car… he has a good point…
I don’t in anyway agree with that point…
but I am just looking for clarity here in the TGM context…
One of my students here is an official authorized instructor of TGM diploma and all, and he said there was no player ability test required…
Some of the graduates of the school were actually hackers, yet had an authority to instruct…
I strongly question this…
ISG is a great website run by great people. Golfguru is exceptional as a person and forum administrator.
I will not in any way agree with this statement.
Sorry about that, I accidentally submitted my last post mid-editing. I meant to say …"They are searching for The Answer. But what drives the search is Random Reinforcement Synrdrome, the basis of Gambling Addiction. You can get lucky and shoot a better score than your actual skill level would normally acheive. You can get lucky and accidentally arrive at impact closer to the impact of a tour pro than your normal bad swing. And the resulting pure shot that travels farther, sounds louder and feels more solid and pure in your hands changes your brain chemistry. You become addicted to the norephiphrine, serotonin, beta-endorphins and dopamine - all of which are chemically and in terms of the high they produce, very similar to street drugs.
ok…
Let’s get back to what we know so far…
Homer said the head must remain stationary… it is essential…
Can we both agree that this is not founded in the reality of great ball strikers as any kind of remote absolute truth?
Can we also agree that there are many authorized instructors of TGM that are mid to even high handicappers with no player ability testing?