Lag gets top 10 player!!!

Even though I didn’t play much as a kid (my dad raised me on his own, went to school and worked 3 jobs…I’m 45 now) I was completely mesmerized by watching golf. I can remember the 70’s with Miller, Seve, Watson, Trevino, Nicklaus, etc. surgically dismantle golf courses. They showed more shots and much less putting. That group gave way to Faldo, Price, Pavin, Couples, Love, Strange, and Irwin in the 80’s. Then Daly, VJ, Els, Mickelson, etc. in the 90’s.

Except for the majors and Ryder Cup, I stopped watching around '95 or so. While the camera work was infinitely better, something was missing. Now I can put my finger on it.

Drive, gouge and putt. Some people (certainly the masses it seems) really enjoy this. More power to them I guess, but 85% of the people are also a bunch of lemmings.

Cheers,
Captain Chaos

I think it all started with Daly. Daly came onto the scene and was hitting it so far beyond anybody else, it sort gave the notion that if you can really bomb it, regardless of your accuracy off the tee, you stand a decent chance out there. Watch the final round of Daly’s win at the PGA at Crooked Stick, he was bombing it by Kenny Knox 50-75 yards on average. To his credit, that week he was hitting fairways so the advantage just seemed unfair.

Then I think Tiger came along and he took it to another level because he could hit it deep and do it with accuracy. He was a far better iron player than Daly was as well. And by year 3 in his PGA career, he became an expert wedge player. So the rest of the Tour had to find a way to keep up and Vijay Singh started to really bomb drives and gouge it out of there. Mickelson followed suit as well. I remember reading an article with Miller Barber and he said that he got Phil to focus on hitting fairways and that was the year he won his first Masters. But soon after Phil reverted back to the bomb-n-gouge because he told Mr. Barber that he just couldn’t keep up with Vijay if Vijay was hitting a wedge and he was hitting an 8-iron.

Tiger ‘followed suit’ only because Haney screwed up his swing. Haney is a guy that had the driver yips and bumped into Mark O’Meara by accident. O’Meara had great success with Haney, although O’Meara was a fantastic putter. Haney completely botched up David Duval’s swing. His other student is Ben Curtis, one of the worst ballstrikers but best putters on Tour. Haney is a Jim Hardy protege, so he’s big into the ‘one plane swing’ and the ‘parallel plane lines’, both of which do not legitimately exist. The reason why I think Tiger would do great in ABS is I don’t think he could do Module 1 with that palm grip.

Anyway, Tiger got longer because of the equipment (although he’s lost some power recently) and became innacurate becasue of swing flaws. He’s really got that 4:30 line down, but with that palm grip in the left hand he cannot always square up the clubface and he winds up having a wide open clubface at impact and hitting it dead right.

3JACK

By palm grip do you mean not enough #3 accumulator angle? Lag, do you have any comments on the idea of minimal #3, for snap releases?

Haney has his golfers grip the club in the left hand in the palm. Tiger has plenty of #3 PA angle.

The pic of Tiger on the left shows this

perfectgolfswingreview.net/ScottWoodsForearm.jpg

But with that grip in the palm, it’s hard to release that #3 PA. For those who don’t know, the #3 Power Accumulator is the left hand rotating back and thru in the swing. It’s basically the swivel action with the left hand that we do with Module 1

Tiger’s miss is the dead right shot. You can’t hit it dead right without an open clubface. One of the things I really love about ABS is that the drills force the golfer to find what certain things work best for them instead of a teacher like Haney saying ‘here’s how you grip it’ and doing the same thing with every student. I believe if Tiger (or anybody) tried to do M1 with the palm grip in their left hand, they would quickly realize it’s not going to work. So in his actual golf swing, when he hits it dead right it’s because the palm grip doesn’t allow for him to square up the clubface and instead leaves it wide open at impact.

3JACK

I completely agree that Tiger’s major problem is his grip, and that right shot is a direct result of it- it’s a disaster yet such an easy fix for him if he’d just figure it out. As for Haney… what a joke…
As far as Tiger hitting it longer with the new equipment, I don’t think that’s true. He was hitting it further in his early 20’s when he had all that body speed and no lag at the top- he almost had a little cast going on. He was hitting those 330 low spin knuckle balls on his own with a short steel shaft, small metal head, and a balata. The equipment has done nothing for him at all imo. It’s just let everyone else hit that shot without the skill or knowhow to actually DO it…
In a weird way I think the equipment saved the game in terms of it being at least competitive through the field. Without it I could’ve seen it become a harlem globetrotters deal, with TIger playing a different game than everyone else and beating them at will(not that he doesn’t do that anyway). His first Masters win changed everything imo. I don’t think it started with Daly, he wasn’t as scary as Tiger in that he didn’t look like he was going to win everything he played in, he was more of an anomaly. Tiger on the other hand, he was set to make the whole thing a joke. For as dominant as he’s been, I don’t think it’s anything compared to what it would’ve been without the equipment…
You could also argue that the course changes came before the equipment changes in that they were trying to Tiger-proof everything but it just made it easier for him. Then in order for everyone else to compete they needed the hot drivers and new ball…

It surely wasn’t anything special for me.

Yes. I do believe that. If that was the case you would be watching great players one after another and I would find that beautiful to witness. I would never get tired of watching Hogan, or anyone else for that matters hitting 72 GIR in a tournament showing complete mastery of the game.

It surely sounds like a good test of ball striking!!!

Long drive is even more boring than the PGA to me. So much so that I’d rather watch AFL. :open_mouth: :astonished: :smiley:

Styles,

The modern tour player has to hit it a mile, wedge it like a demon, and chip and putt the lights out of them.
There is nothing in the above the requires a “great” golf swing. Good maybe, but not great.

I am here for one reason… to teach people how to swing a golf club. Putting lightweight gear into their hands is not going to teach them how to swing a golf club and strike a golf ball to their optimum level.

I want ABS students to have access to greatness. Why not? Will everyone here be great? probably not… but what was once not possible is now possible, and I am seeing great things already from some students relative from where they were 6 months to a year ago.

I understand you think 7500 yard, wide open golf courses with perfect felted greens is really cool… good for you.

Problem is most people don’t play on courses like that… they can’t rely upon pristine conditions every week and many students here actually play public golf courses where hitting the ball straight is more important than it is on tour.

I’m serious about this…

They have to dig the ball out of bad lies, hit straight drives, and learn to hit the ball near the hole with their irons because they are not handed a pool cue when they arrive.

For most people, golf is not all that much different than it was years ago.

Styles,

The guys on tour are playing par 68’s. The new 16 under for the week is the old even par. Just a fact. Driver 5 iron is a par 4. So is driver - hybrid. I remember playing par 4’s that at times were not reachable in two. But they were par 4’s.
I was never a short hitter.

Why is it that every time they give a modern tour player an old set of gear and send them out onto the course they struggle? They often shoot 75 or worse?

Why? because that exposes the truth about their golf swing.

Hogan’s company made cavity backs while he was alive, but did he personally play them? or practice with them?
NO

he knew better.

There is nothing impressive about the modern gear… I mean I can drive the ball insane distances with it… big deal…
Did I suddenly get better? Did my golf swing suddenly change into me the new long bomber? Of course not… that’s silly.

When Two goes back out, he will do fine… for the simple reason, he is a great player, and the only difference will be that he will carry a canon in the bag that he can use when he needs it. His golf swing is simply healing from the damage that was done to it with poor gear and misguided instruction. He won’t be using anything as a crutch, and he will have an advantage over the other guys because he understands how to play golf, get the ball into the hole, and most importantly,
he knows how to win. You don’t lose that.

Arnie, it is a matter of choice, however its interesting you pick me up for my comments about my choice, but choose to not pick Pip up on his comment that

I disagree that todays pros are glorified hackers making it on tour due to their wedge games and putting. If it were that easy, I daresay a few more would be out there. By that assertion, the likes of Richie is a hacker too - or does this just apply to ‘millionaires’ who have made it?? It does seem a bit convenient that all the proper players with great swings have been disadvantaged whilst the also rans have turned into winners :neutral_face:

Is the game that different? Its still about getting the ball in the hole in the fewest possible strokes. I’ve already stated in another thread of how Bob Jones routinely hit the ball over 300 yards off the tee, Hogan could get it out there too. So drives have always gone that far, therefore its not frying pans that are to blame :wink:

Arnie you say you despair of the pace of play ‘modern gear’ has had on the game - I’m sorry, are all persimmon players veritable whippets round the course? Your statement is farcical.

You talk about the game 25 years ago being more exciting. The first thing I would say is winding the clock back just like that is not a fair comparison. You were 25 years younger back then, the amount of golf on television was incomparably less, everyone was a little more naive. I think over exposure to golf is probably a bigger issue than the excitement factor of each tournament.

I hope you enjoy the Masters, no doubt you’ll be saying to anyone who cares to listen how much better it was ‘in the old days’! :laughing:

so your golfing television experiences are more valid than a 15 year old kid of today’s? If they do enjoy them, they are dismissed as lemmings.

How conceited of you :neutral_face:

So the players of old didn’t send it out there? Don’t be silly Lag. You even said in a post the other day how you enjoy outdriving ‘frying pan’ users with your persimmon. It would seem you are part of your own problem, making old courses obsolete…

I have seen it with my own eyes with two of your students so have no doubt of it. Were they both using persimmon and vintage irons though? You can improve swings without having students stepping back in time.

Are you serious? When you know my preference, long stated is for links golf. When you know that my favourite course anywhere is Royal County Down, followed by the other great Irish Links, followed by the great Scottish and English Links, followed by the classic tests scattered throughout the rest of the world you surely can’t be serious when you suggest my ideal is resort golf - that was nothing but a cheap shot Lag that you are ordinarily above.

John, you are describing the golf I play every week of the year :neutral_face: I don’t get your point.

Out of interest, assuming you have played the Old Course, what did you hit for your second shots on 9 and 10?

I hope he does, I know I’ll be cheering him on. He’ll not do anything though if he brings persimmon to the tee.

Nice. Styles…you’re entitled to your opinion just like I am. However, you have a way of being an ass in just about everything you write. Do you have to work at being a being a “hall monitor” with a stick rammed up his backside or does it just come naturally?

Captain Chaos

CC
well played, sir
bent

sorry for not reading the menu - I didn’t realise a difference of opinion credited you with being labelled an ass.

Nice use of words CC, did you take an hour to phrase your comback ‘just right’?

My comment still stands and at least I’ve not resorted to insulting people to get my points across.

brent.jpg

What could be better than a current PGA Tour star doing the experiment for us?

Here are some excepts from Brent’s experiences. I give him credit for so honestly exposing himself to such inquiry.

We have heard the testimony from Mr. Snedeker

Lag rests his case prosecuting the modern game.

Would the defense like to continue?

They should have given him a set of hickories so he could have seen what it was like to play with ‘proper’ old gear like Bob Jones and Tommy Morris used.

Your steel shafted persimmons are modern clubs to those guys. :wink:

Wonderful… no doubt that Hickory Golf is on the up and up… I have been looking around for a good set of hickories actually.

hickorygolfers.com/fixtures.php

A proper golf swing can work well with any type of club.

So getting back on topic here…

If a top player were to come to me for advice, I would make sure they were not using modern gear as a crutch, and as I said before, they sure better be able to beat me with persimmon and blades… or hickories for that matter.

If their swing is proper, they will be able to play par golf with vintage gear. If not, then we would have some work to do.

The reason Tiger dominates is that Tiger would have no problem playing persimmon, and I suspect he could win with it even today.

O Grady’s 5th place finish in the Australian Senior Open last year is good testimony to what a proper golf swing is capable of.

Do you think golf is tougher (relative to par) with modern equipment from 7400 yards, or with old-timey gear from 6,400 yards? I shot lower on shorter courses with persimmon and blades than I do from the tips of my home club (7248 yards) with modern gear. Now 7,000 yards with persimmon is a different animal for sure! :open_mouth: In terms of scoring the modern recreational player is not better…I wish that he/she were so they could speed up play.

Quote from Jack Nicklaus recently:

Maybe it makes sense to obsolete all the world’s great courses, good for the economy, creates jobs, building an new infrastructure of golf based around new technology…

But I still feel golf is best left as a great game, and should not be, or have been run over by a non golfing corporate mentality where the only real concern is profits.

Jack’s view on obsoleting the majority of the worlds courses is a justifiable concern.

As far as the tour… I don’t think 7500 yard courses, actually, are not long enough. To bring back what really separates the pros from the amateurs is in fact the long iron play.

Amateurs (hackers) can sink long putts, hit wedges close, and drive the ball 300 plus… But a hacker can never play an appropriate long iron shot, because to do that, you need a very good golf swing. You don’t need a great golf swing to chop down on a wedge shot… sink a long putt… or even smash a frying pan 300 yards… you can go to any driving range and see some guy pelting balls over the back fence, still being a 90 shooter.

So again…

I am here to teach the student “the now ancient art form” of “Taekwondo Golf Jujitsu” based upon the ancient lost art form of striking a spherical object with a wooden stick conceptually grounded in the teachings of the great masters of the distant past of 15 ancient years ago. :sunglasses:

Lag,
Do you think there are any good swings among the players today, and do you think there are any bad swings among the players of the past? And do you have any thoughts as to why a hook was so prevalent and so feared in the past, and why it plagued so many of the great players? Equipment? Ball? Shafts? Technique?
Obviously modern teaching has evolved to be focused on distance, and the dynamics required to hit one of the big drivers has absolutely nothing to do with hitting an iron shot off the ground. It’s a difficult prospect to groove a swing that hits a driver long (approx 2-4 degree upward strike being optimal) that can also strike a crisp long iron shot- hence the hybrids I imagine. But taking the driver out of it, the major difference between modern irons and old irons, at least among top players, is lie angle- I really don’t think off centre striking is the problem for top players so whether they use blades or cavities I don’t think is that big an issue(obviously there’s COG and loft etc, but they don’t really effect centre strike ability) Do you think that the ultimate problem is the encouragement of a steeper angle of attack?
I think given a few weeks a good player would be able to figure out how to use any well made club- I don’t think it’s fair to take Snedekers 1 round as the acid test. Change out someone’s whole bag with any kind of clubs and they’ll struggle the first day out. Plus I wouldn’t rate him as a top player anyway- we don’t hear much about the Snedeker’s of the past or get to see their swings. It’s not fair to hold him up against the greats of the past because he’s not a great of today. Until a top rated player does the same experiment my jury is out on condemning a whole generation of players…