Jeff,
In an “ideal” full swing through P3 and P4 with feet on level ground at the same elevation as the level target line:
Are P3 and P4 ideally always at the same elevation above the target line?
Are P3 and P4 ideally always at the same distance from the target line?
Can P3 and P4 be at different elevations and/or distances from the target line?
Are the answers the same for an “ideal” hitter or a swinger?
Great question 1T.
Simply put can/should you shift the planes between P3-P4? in the picture on the right the clubs is actually shifting planes although still complying with Homer’s def. of on plane.
Using Mickleson is a horrible example for anything regarding the golf swing. One of the tours worst drivers of a golf ball year in and year out. It is not only testament to his poor technique with a driver, but also that the PGA Tour sets up the courses to allow this kind of sub quality execution to come out on top in the overall performance catagories…( money leaders, Ryder Cup Points) and so forth… meaning there is little or no emphasis on accuracy the of the tee shot…but that is another discussion.
This I completely agree with.
Now, every TGM instructor I know seems to believe that as long as the shaft is pointing at the base plane line… you are on plane… even if the other side of the plane is moving back and forth… (exactly as I can move my laptop screen back and forth with the hinges on the bottom.) TGM tragically allows for the plane to move on one end… as long as it is fixed to the plane line on the other… (this makes the golf swing very unreliable)
This is what happens when the arms fly off the body too quickly post impact… it creates a changing of the steepness of the plane. … and this is further complicated by the right arm straighting to quickly, and the wrists uncocking from impact to P4. This steepens the plane unnecessarily and encourages violent closing of the clubface post impact further complicated the golf swing. This kind of swing takes much more effort to maintain, and you typically find players who go this route having to be ball beaters. VJ has gone on record saying that he has to hit 200 balls a day for fear he will completely lose it if he takes more than a day off… and another guy down at the bottom of the accuarcy barrel to boot.
Do you understand what I mean by this hinging plane concept which I don’t care for?
Just as Macs has described…
Those buying into the movable hinging TGM plane thing though impact, I’m going to keep taking your lunch money tee to green…
John,
I believe that you incorrectly misinterpreting the TGM concept of being “on-plane” as being equivalent to a TGMer allowing the clubshaft to shift planes during its passage from P3 to P4. That is not acceptable. It is only acceptable to be shifting planes to a significantly steeper plane when the clubshaft is above P3 and P4. However, the clubshaft must remain on roughly the same plane between P3 and P4 - within the geometrical framework of the “real world” fact that P4 is higher off the ground than P3.
Homer Kelley never recommended a “movable hinged plane while the club moves through impact”.
Jeff.
1 teebox
I don’t know why you asked this question.
I don’t like the word “ideal” as it applies to a golf swing.
However, I do believe that P4 will be higher than P3 in a very good golfer. It will also be slightly further away from the ball-target line.
Here is Ben Hogan’s face-on view.
perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganP3P4.jpg
Image 1 shows Hogan at P3. Image 2 shows him at P4. You can see that P4 is higher off the ground than P3 (red line).
Here is a DTL view of Tiger Woods.
perfectgolfswingreview.net/TigerP3P4.jpg
Image 1 shows Tiger at P3. Image 2 shows Tiger at P4. You can see that P4 is higher off the ground than P3, and that it is slightly further away from the ball-target line.
Hopefully, you can understand the natural biomechanical reasons for these differences.
Jeff.
Jeff
In John’s world as opposed to the “real world” P3 and P4 are are the “same” hight. You wont believe this but this is true and his scolding post should still be in the private area. He would not look at my video till I bought bright reference points and a sharper video camera. I was pissed off at the time but now I know why.
I believe those are not the P3 and P4 def. Lag uses but I will let him answer this one.
Jeff,
Thank you for your reply.
From Mandrin’s opening analysis:
getting back to the origins of the thread topic… I think Mandrin is understanding what I work on with my students. I would add that active hands would be alive and well post impact through the existence of pressuring into opposing forces.
1teebox
Let me explain why I personally believe that P4 must be higher than P3 in a good golfer. It is simply based on natural human biomechanics.
Consider a golfer approaching P3.
perfectgolfswingreview.net/Hogan … otting.jpg
Here is a series of photos showing Ben Hogan’s early-mid downswing as he drops the power package and clubshaft into the “slot” in the early downswing. Note how he maintains the power package intact, and how he maintains the “correct” alignment between the right forearm flying wedge (red) and the left arm flying wedge (yellow). During this process, the right elbow will reach its pitch location in front of the right hip. The biomechanical movements needed to perform this downswing action will determine the position of the club at P3.
By contrast, the club at P4 will be much higher off the ground - because the golfer has increased secondary axis tilt, and because the club has gained so much momentum through impact that it straightens-out the right arm (after release of PA #4, #2, #3 in a swinger). The arms are nearly fully extended at P4 in a driver swing in a good golfer like Ben Hogan.
See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/Hogan … hrough.jpg
Look at Hogan in the 6th image .
Finally, P4 will be slightly further away from the ball-target line (relative to P3) - because the golfer has an open pelvis and slightly open shoulders by the time the club reaches P4, and those biomechanical facts cause the club to move inside-left post-impact. Look at Ben Hogan in the 6th image above.
By contrast, at P3, the pelvis is roughly square to the ball-target line and the shoulders are closed to the ball-target line.
Jeff.
Jeff,
OK. I can see it now. I appreciate your description.
Thank you.
Thought this was a pretty clever image and effort by a Hoganist that some may enjoy. 
RR
Let me try again with the address…pardon me for my lack of computer skills.
youtube.com/watch?v=4RpArp8xIbw
Hope it works…if not just do it manually I guess. RR
Mr Rat,
Mr. U.Tube says the video is not available!
I’m not sure what the problem is. I just went over to YT and the video is there.
Try this…go to YT and type in Ben Hogan Swing Plane…within the results are some videos by username INMHSTN.
This video is 30 seconds long…and has a pretty cool look at the basketball pass.
If you view it…could you please maybe bring it over here and let me know where I screwed up. Thanks…RR
Here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RpArp8XIbw
Rat, did you use cut & paste or did you write down the link on a piece of cheese and transcribe? It didn’t like the lower case “x” you put in the link! 
Hi RR,
I don’t know what went wrong but here it is:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RpArp8XIbw[/youtube]
Nice vid!
Interesting stuff RR, certainly on the intention rather than the reality of where Hogans hands went.
Cheers, Arnie
RR,
That looks like some extra-sharp, aged , high quality cheese there. Good find.
