George Knudson swinging against a grid

youtube.com/watch?v=Vbdbju07IDo

Forgive me if this has been put up before, seen it on LBG and though you guys would love it.

On Lynn’s site Knudson is being described as a pure swinger. I’m pretty sure that over here he has been described as a hitter.

Does it matter?

ABS and Morad would be similar in definition…

Swinging, out to right field post impact (right arm straightening through impact)

Hitting, cutting left, or around the corner post impact (right arm frozen, bent through impact)

Does it matter?

It does if you want to hit it good everyday…!

Knudson? Hitter by definition here…

What a great video, this is amongst the best I’ve seen, thanks for posting Styles. I’m still just struggling through module 2, but the results of the hard work seem to be right there in his swing. I’m guessing he also has a model swing for many of the other modules, great find.

Lag,

First timer. So, a surefire way of knowing Knudson is hitting is because he is actively resisiting CF straightening the right elbow prematurely? So, hitting it not properly defined at the straightening of the #1Acc. but rather resisting straightening of the same? So Homer Kelley was right in suggesting that right arm participation was a key in understanding the golf stroke. If the straightening right elbow causes the face to close too soon why is it suggested that “Homer-hitting” produces an automatic angled hinge? Obviously, there is a lot I do not get, but if some of my sticking points are addressed I may be well on my way! Thank you in advance.

First timer. So, a surefire way of knowing Knudson is hitting is because he is actively resisiting CF straightening the right elbow prematurely?

Yes, just like Hogan, Peter Senior, and other fine hitters.

So, hitting it not properly defined at the straightening of the #1Acc. but rather resisting straightening of the same?

Yes, it makes more sense, because then you can hit with the hand rather than the right arm. Hogan, Snead, both talked about hitting with the hands… (at the bottom not the from the top).

So Homer Kelley was right in suggesting that right arm participation was a key in understanding the golf stroke.

YES!

If the straightening right elbow causes the face to close too soon why is it suggested that “Homer-hitting” produces an automatic angled hinge?

It’s doesn’t create it automatically, and is not all that great a procedure in my opinion.

Obviously, there is a lot I do not get, but if some of my sticking points are addressed I may be well on my way! Thank you in advance.

Thanks for stopping by and posting… we all appreciate it as well.

Thank you for taking the time to indulge questions that have no doubt been asked and answered numerous times. I had a couple of more!

Firing of the hands: is this a keen sense of #3PP, or is it a flattening of the right wrist (I doubt the latter) Is it a case of the hands being the final delivery mechanism. I guess I view the hands from as sensors more than generators.

Frozen right arm: If extensor action is the right arm constantly trying to straighten agains the checkrein action of the left arm how do we go about insuring the correct degree of elbow bend at impact? I agree by the way that a commonality between the premier ball strikers (with exceptions no doubt) is the measure of bent right arm well past impact. How does one go about preserving the bend? Is that the role of the right shoulder driving down plane, taking the entire power package through the ball?

I gravitate to your way of thinking about golf courses and equipment. I was one of the last pesimmon hold outs in college circa '93. It was a 42 inch steel shafted Mizuno MS that I hit close to 80% of my fairways with as a freshman. I destroyed it by taking a practice swing in a parking lot! I hit around 60% of the fairways the next season with a 44.5 inch shafted monstrosity. I developed a pull-hook that pretty much ended my aspirations of playing professionally. The modern drivers just did not sit right. I could hit that persimmon beauty off the deck as well! Pretty sure the lie angle was close to 50 degrees. Regardless of the cyber-wars Lag, you do offer unique insights.

Thanks for posing that question bob… I have had it in mind for a while… TGM has helped me understand the golf swing immensely and am now hitting draws where up until recently my swing was an OTT monstrosity causing weak high slices… I have found that when my right shoulder isn’t driving down plane, my contact and ball flight is all over the place. So for me, that is a main swing thought that I have for every swing… to make sure that right arm is bent through impact and for a good way beyond. On first reading about the magic of the right forearm, I was trying consciously to keep the right forearm bent through impact - now the right shoulder takes care of it automatically, or so it seems to me.

Some insight into this would be greatly appreciated…

cheers.

Firing of the hands: is this a keen sense of #3PP, or is it a flattening of the right wrist (I doubt the latter) Is it a case of the hands being the final delivery mechanism. I guess I view the hands from as sensors more than generators.

The hands ARE NOT the final firing mechanism… it starts the firing, the pivot finishes it… THE GOLF SWING IS NOT OVER AT IMPACT… the sooner you realize this, the sooner you start hitting the golf ball flush.
TGM’s PP3 is better to be felt than not… but pressures should be felt all through the hands, anywhere your flesh touches the grip will be a point of pressure. I have calluses on the top of the middle finger pads of my right hand, and the base of my right hand pinky finger. Calluses are also in the mirror image location on my left hand which is shows good balance between both hands… something I really strive for as a ball striker… balance between the hands.

Frozen right arm: If extensor action is the right arm constantly trying to straighten agains the checkrein action of the left arm how do we go about insuring the correct degree of elbow bend at impact?

You can’t if your intention is to chase that vapor trail… shallow entry into P3 with a steepening exit out of P4 is the key.
You also need strong post impact pivot thrust to substitute pivot acceleration for right elbow straightening. Homer talked about the dangers of straightening the right arm through impact, and how it can disturb clubface alignments… oddly enough… every TGM instructor I know teaches a right elbow drive through impact… it works… but not very well… so that’s why a lot of TGM guys are over here at ABS because they are tired of hitting the ball all over the lot.

I agree by the way that a commonality between the premier ball strikers (with exceptions no doubt) is the measure of bent right arm well past impact. How does one go about preserving the bend? Is that the role of the right shoulder driving down plane, taking the entire power package through the ball?

Sign up for this ABS program… I grind my students into the ground to learn how to do this… and it takes a lot of hard biomechanical work… but we can all do it… and the rewards of it’s mastery are wonderful.

I gravitate to your way of thinking about golf courses and equipment.

I’m far from the only one… but maybe a bit more vocal about it… I don’t like complaining about things… I like changing things.

I was one of the last pesimmon hold outs in college circa '93.

Good for you… I was still playing persimmon on tour in 1993. Davis Love and Langer were hold outs too.

It was a 42 inch steel shafted Mizuno MS that I hit close to 80% of my fairways with as a freshman.

That tells you something…

I destroyed it by taking a practice swing in a parking lot! I hit around 60% of the fairways the next season with a 44.5 inch shafted monstrosity. I developed a pull-hook that pretty much ended my aspirations of playing professionally.

and it ended the careers of may fine persimmon players who couldn’t switch over because they could feel it destroying their golf swings…

The modern drivers just did not sit right.

and it is only getting worse… Arnie and I were in a Golfsmith store in the SF Bay Area picking up some lead tape, and a travel bag, and there are now drivers that look like waffle irons with a ski pole sticking out of them…

I could hit that persimmon beauty off the deck as well! Pretty sure the lie angle was close to 50 degrees. Regardless of the cyber-wars Lag, you do offer unique insights.

Go back to persimmon… and start enjoying golf again… learn how to stripe it with proper gear that will train your swing correctly, then go out and play old school courses and beat all the guys with the new gear… it’s fun and an act of high nobility! :sunglasses:

I realised this very quickly… when I focused on hitting with the right forearm, the pivot would stall and as you say Lag, the variation between swings were huge. Driving the right shoulder down plane basically prevents me from doing so and allows my pivot to continue firing to the end of the follow through…

Also, that first bolded comment is intriguing! I have fought an overly flat backswing for ages and couldn’t understand why my follow through was much steeper… plenty of food for thought, thanks!

I am not a TGM student, nor could I tell you what a few minutes web surfing might explain better about it. But this right arm stuff is for babies. You want ball striking, forget the arms, and ask the body and legs.

I’m in module 2, and have never studied TGM, but when you look at this video and notice the right arm, it’s like you are seeing the tip of the iceberg. What is the intention of the pivot, how about the legs and feet. George is crushing this ball as well as any, and next to none of it is to do with his arms.

My thoughts on this, and granted I’ve never studied TGM, is that TGM is great to study if you want be able to explain the great swings. But if you play golf and hit it well, sign up right now.

To summarise:
Right arm firing sensation = bicycle
Body pivot = car
Lag’s modules = formula 1

You can’t if your intention is to chase that vapor trail… shallow entry into P3 with a steepening exit out of P4 is the key.
You also need strong post impact pivot thrust to substitute pivot acceleration for right elbow straightening. Homer talked about the dangers of straightening the right arm through impact, and how it can disturb clubface alignments… oddly enough… every TGM instructor I know teaches a right elbow drive through impact… it works… but not very well… so that’s why a lot of TGM guys are over here at ABS because they are tired of hitting the ball all over the lot.

An answer would give away the store? :laughing: To my discredit I am a cyber-leech with a paltry golf budget :blush: Even with Homer’s hitting pattern I always felt that there had to be substantial right arm bend at impact on the way to both arms straight. Lynn Blake in particular insists that the thrust continues, and constantly warns of “running out of right arm.” Is there no parity here? I interepreted the thrust to continue past impact. I concede (I do not have a sophisticated knowledge of TGM) that a “hitter’s pivot” tends to hold, or brace as an equal and opposite force for the thrusting right arm. As you say it does work, but I have always thought that you would need to be particularly strong to pull it off. As to the right arm disturbing the clubface alignment I have a sticking point. I was under the impression that the paddle wheel action of the right arm automatically produces an angled hinge i.e. a quieter face. What am I missing? My basic understanding of an effective golf stroke is that an on and down plane drive of the right shoulder preserves the bend in the right elbow. Elbow bend then is insurance of sorts i.e. Trevino was well insured. :open_mouth: As soon as the pivot slows the right arm will straighten. From your point of view because a player employing your protocol is resisting the force that wants to pull the right arm into a straight line he is hitting. Does CF eventually win out causing the right arm to straighten? I attended a Nick Price clinic in 1992. He made reference to the downswing as striking a giant match, with loads of right side participation, and the importance of continuing to move through and past the ball. The right shoulder is part of the pivot so I am going to guess as say that is a huge part of this puzzle.

I understand the vapor trail concerning the flat left wrist, but I am not sure how that relates to extensor action. If the flying wedges and right elbow location and participation (or is that non-participation) is important the extensor action seems to be a cause of good things, not merely a result.

John, I was curious to know what golf ball you prefer to play? I am guessing you do not have easy access to balata balls! Do you remember the Spalding Tour Edition? I could suck that thing back 25 feet! I loved those squishy balata balls! I hate the click of the modern ball…feels like I am hitting a Pinnacle Gold! My short game was better with balata.

I have always played blades. My favorites were the McGregor JN 20th Century Muirfields. I wore the chrome off 2 iron though SW! Thank again for sharing your wealth of knowledge only at the expense of burning a few brain cells!

There is little that could be said that would “give away the store.” There is really nothing Lag hasn’t mentioned on forums. Really, what you pay for is a step by step way to do those things, with constant reviews to make sure you get the drills properly. Even if someone showed you all the videos, you still may struggle to do anything with that information. Once you actually do the drills, with the supervision, then you can really understand where Lag is coming from. You know it because you feel it. This isn’t about filling in gaps of information that Lag has deliberately left out of forums, it’s about drilling you to do the right thing from start to finish.

And I know I’m not too qualified to talk TGM, but I’ll point out one thing that Lag has publicly mentioned before, I just hope I’m not mis-interpreting him. Elbow bend is not really insurance, it’s actually a liability. When you see pictures of greats with a lot of elbow bend, thats probably because they had tonnes of horsepower left, so could afford a late bent elbow. It’s probably not a bad thing to visualize and attempt yourself, because your body will be thinking “how the heck am I going to correct this” and may well start trying to work out where that horsepower is going to come from. But for sure, if you don’t have a lot of horsepower left, a big bent arm would not be ideal down low.

John - you wrote-: “Swinging, out to right field post impact (right arm straightening through impact).”

I think that it is major mistake to think that a swinger has to swing out-to-right field post-impact (because he is actively straightening the right arm). I believe that a swinger must always keep his clubshaft “on-plane” during the followthrough, and that means that he must always “swing left”. The degree of “swinging left” will be minimum if his “selected” clubshaft plane through impact is the TSP, and maximum if his “selected” clubshaft plane through impact is the hand plane. However, he must never “swing right” because he would then be “off-plane” (per Homer Kelley’s definition of being “on plane”).

Jeff.

I agree with you here Jeff…

The TGM Turned Shoulder Plane is the only swing plane that should be entertained by dead hand swingers. It’s the only chance to actually swing on plane…

Problem is… I have yet to see a TGM instructor that teaches this as the primary platform…

Not Doyle, McHatton, Blake, or any others I have seen… so the students keep spraying the ball all over the lot…

You wrote-: “The TGM Turned Shoulder Plane is the only swing plane that should be entertained by dead hand swingers. It’s the only chance to actually swing on plane…”

I don’t understand why you believe that a TGM-swinger (dead hands swinger) could not use the elbow plane, or even the hand plane, and still remain on-“plane”.

Jeff.

John

You wrote in response to this comment-: "So, hitting it not properly defined at the straightening of the #1Acc. but rather resisting straightening of the same?

Yes, it makes more sense, because then you can hit with the hand rather than the right arm. Hogan, Snead, both talked about hitting with the hands… (at the bottom not the from the top)."

What do you mean “hit with the hand rather than the right arm”?

Jeff.

Lag teaches hitting with the hands in the first module. It’s pretty hard to dispute after you feel the difference in power after getting this feeling.